JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

but since they set them selves up for it with failing to document the numbers of the car that was crushed. it's what happens. 35 bucks wounder it it's worth a trip that far away from anything just to stand 5 feet away from it. Doc missed the boat he could have been selling tickets and just had the repetition of Barem and Baily. I'm wounder if we are list as the basement blogers. the new owner doesn't have to research anything just reprint everything we and they have all ready put out. then set the car out with a set of ropes. it could be the best 125 grand she has spend. but now at least we know were the car ended up.
 
Ed, with all due respect, nobody failed to document anything. The JFK Library folks documented everything they felt was pertinent at the time to the best of their ability. They even took pictures - way above and beyond normal documentation. They had no idea that, 25 years later, someone would try to forge and falsify and make up details to try to "bend" a different car into appearing to be the "actual" one.

We can look at the information available - and we have - and see that the actual ambulance was destroyed beyond any doubt. But those who want to make up history, deny truth, and charge everyone $35 to see a "what if" will simply choose to ignore what the documentation proves in order to rip off others for their own financial gain.

I doubt the JFK Library folks could have said or done anything more than they did to prevent this, no matter how hard they tried. Even if we had the original plate (which nobody could have foreseen as being important), those who would profiteer off this would still simply ignore it or deny it as they've done with everything else.

Yes, it's the very circus they wanted to prevent. And like JFK himself, we are all unwilling particpants in the center ring of the show.
 
TOO TOOO TOOOOOOOOOOOT
TOO TOOO TOOOOOOOOOOOT
TOO TOO TOOOT TOO TOO TOOOOT
TOO TOO TOOOT
TOOOO TOOO TOOOOOOO TOOOOOO TOOOO TOOOOOOT
TOOO TOOO TOOOOOOOOOT

I just played taps for this thread!
 
Ed, with all due respect, nobody failed to document anything. The JFK Library folks documented everything they felt was pertinent at the time to the best of their ability. They even took pictures - way above and beyond normal documentation. They had no idea that, 25 years later, someone would try to forge and falsify and make up details to try to "bend" a different car into appearing to be the "actual" one.

We can look at the information available - and we have - and see that the actual ambulance was destroyed beyond any doubt. But those who want to make up history, deny truth, and charge everyone $35 to see a "what if" will simply choose to ignore what the documentation proves in order to rip off others for their own financial gain.

I doubt the JFK Library folks could have said or done anything more than they did to prevent this, no matter how hard they tried. Even if we had the original plate (which nobody could have foreseen as being important), those who would profiteer off this would still simply ignore it or deny it as they've done with everything else.

Yes, it's the very circus they wanted to prevent. And like JFK himself, we are all unwilling particpants in the center ring of the show.

If they would not of destroyed the "real car" than this would not be happening. I think their plan backfired. It is to bad the real car was destroyed because we can now never know "beyond any doubt"! If it would of been kept than I think this would of been proven a fake long before now.
 
there is no doubt they crushed the right car. it just that one picture of the data plate or keeping the data plate off the car would have eliminated the copy cats. there could not be two data plates with the same number. but who would have though of that. unless they were a car collector. they had the car, took two rolls of pictures showing it in storage, the people there and being crushed. better then good enough proof to them. as they all ready knew it was the car. we know from trying our selves there is no way to trace a car threw the superior plant. no way to tie the gm number to the superior number and in this case the navy number. the library used the FSN as there means of Id the car. now thanks to us and Barret - Jackson Ms Allen has all the stuff she needs for her promo of the car. sad to say that's the focus, not finding out the truth. as it was predicted.

but she is a businesswoman who most likly now knows the truth and there ain't no money in it. she is running a lot nicer operation then the back of a tent. but still in it for profit. now Bob's car is being stored inside, not in a container. people will get to see it. if she present the information truer then BJ did they will have no doubt of the truth. it is up to her after all. but first you got to get them to come to Grand Junction co and fork over there 35 bucks. they can look and spend the rest of the day there looking at her other stuff. which from the pictures my aunt took is really something to see. me I'm just not going that way any to soon. you think I live out of the way, goggle Grand Junction.
 
At the top of their website there is a correction tab.
I sent a "correction" note to the paper with a link to this thread.

I don't figure they know or care but at least they are now aware !

Darren
 
WOW !!!

I'm very impressed with this lady !
Here is her quick response...


:applause:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 Apr 2011 13:30:09 -0600 (MDT) Download RE: Correction.msg
From: "Laurena Mayne Davis" <laurena.davis@gjsentinel.com> Import addresses laurena.davis@gjsentinel.com Block email laurena.davis@gjsentinel.com Block SMTP relay dynamic12.wm-web.iad.mlsrvr.com
To: "darren@bedfordunicycles.ca" <darren@bedfordunicycles.ca>
Subject: RE: Correction All headers

Interesting discussion. Thanks.

-----Original Message-----
From: darren@bedfordunicycles.ca
Sent: Tuesday, April 19, 2011 1:25pm
To: corrections@gjsentinel.com
Subject: Correction

Name:
Darren
Email:
URL/Headline:
Navy Ambulance by Mike Wiggins 4-15
Here are the facts regarding the ambulance...

http://www.professionalcarsociety.org/forums/showthread.php?t=4201

Regards,
Darren
 
Darren, good job contacting the paper. I followed up on your lead with a letter to the person who replied to you with more information. Text of the letter is below.

It looked smaller when I was typing it!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The "JFK Ambulance"Tuesday, April 19, 2011 5:14 PM
From: "Stephen Lichtman" <stevel200@att.net>
To: laurena.davis@gjsentinel.com

Ms. Davis,

I know that PCS Member Darren Bedford has already contacted you, and provided you with a link to the Professional Car Society website and our discussion about the validity of the so-called "JFK Ambulance", which now resides in Grand Junction at the Allen Museum. I'd like to follow up on that if I may.

Your newspaper report seems to state that it is a fact that the ambulance in the Allen Museum is the real "JFK Ambulance" and that all other information are just "theories". As you may have seen in the discussion, we have discovered through significant research just what the facts and theories of this matter are. I realize the discussion thread is quite long and, in some cases, rather rambling. So I'd like to take the opportunity to summarize the information we found in our research.

Our club is a historic club dedicated to the history of "professional cars" - that is, ambulances, hearses, limousines, funeral flower cars, and similar vehicles (not police cars or taxis - while they are cars used in a profession, the automotive definition of a professional car is as I stated). We are an international club of historical hobbiests - our's is more than just a car club where we get together to show our cars and hang out. There is significant history in our unusual vehicles, and we document that history.

In the 1980's, one of our members began to research the fate of the ambulance which transported President Kennedy's body in 1963. Through his US Congressman, he received a letter from the US Navy stating the car had been transferred to the John F. Kennedy Library in Massachusetts, and it was subsequently scrapped.

Using that information as a basis for our research earlier this year, I contacted the Kennedy Library. They have significant documentation to prove this was the case, including photos and sworn affidavits from people who were witness to the vehicle being scrapped. Indeed, they have records dating back to the early 1970's showing that the correct ambulance was set aside for preservation and intended to be destroyed, so as to prevent it from becoming a morbid curiosity. As the Kennedy Library is part of the National Archives, the veracity of these photos and documents is unquestionable.

If your reporters would like to contact the Kennedy Library to verify these facts, they may. All these documents are public information available to anyone on request.

The theory presented by Ms. Allen, Barrett-Jackson, and the previous owner, Dr. Jensen, is that the actual ambulance was not destroyed, but rather, spent 20+ years in a shipping container in the California desert before being "discovered" by an earlier owner. Dr. Jensen bought the car and attempted to resell it in less than a year, though he was hampered by the lack of documentation. The theory continues that he somehow found the proper documentation and offered the car for sale again.

The problem is that the documentation provided with the sale is not proper, and quite certainly falsified. The "documents" include a letter from the Surgeon General of the Navy requesting the link between the serial number and Navy ID number, addressed to Superior Coach (the builder of the ambulance), and a reply from Superior Coach connecting the serial number of his car to the Navy ID number seen in period photos of the actual ambulance. The problems with these letters are that the signer of the Navy letter was not Surgeon General of the Navy at the time, having retired from the Navy in 1961, two years before the assassination. And the reply from Superior Coach to the Navy was written on stationary bearing a logo of the company that was retired in the 1950's in favor of a more modern logo. It's hard to imagine them replying to such an "important" request using obsolete stationary.

In addition, the data plate on the ambulance in question, which bears the vehicle serial number and Navy ID number, is not the correct data plate for that vehicle. The correct data plate had the Superior Coach company name pre-printed on the plate. The data plate on the car is a generic plate not used on these vehicles, reproductions of which are readily available for sale on the internet. Also, the ambulance was said to be "unrestored", yet the lettering on the doors of the ambulance does not match original photos in size or style (font), and also includes periods after the "U.S." which the original photos show it did not have.

In summary, the theory is that the previous owners "miraculously" found this historic car previously sold as surplus and/or assumed to have been scrapped, and offered it for sale to the highest bidder, who now charges folks to come see it. The facts are that the car was specifically set aside for historic reasons and scrapped to prevent a "circus" atmosphere, similar to that which currently surrounds the car in the Allen Museum. All the facts can be documented by the National Archives and Kennedy Library. All the "documentation" provided with the sale has been proven to be false.

The research our club members did to discover the facts were presented on the internet. Several national media outlets, including Fox News and Bloomberg News, picked up on the story, and doing their own investigating, agreed with and reported our findings. So we are not just hobbiests with a wild theory, the facts we presented from the Kennedy Library have been verified by major news organizations.

My personal opinion is that Ms. Allen, and the previous owner, are trying to gain financially off the memory of a tragic event in US history and off the memory of the revered President Kennedy. And that is, itself, a travesty.

I'm sorry your newspaper chose to report only one side of the story, the side presented by a wealthy local resident, and did not do due diligence in researching the facts of the story. I do hope you can do better.

I will also say that I visited Grand Junction several years ago, and found it to be a lovely city. I enjoyed my stay there.

Thanks for your time, feel free to contact me if you have further questions on this matter or if you'd like me to provide copies of the documents we received from the Kennedy Library.

Take care.

Steve Lichtman
Board of Directors Member, Professional Car Society
Mount Airy, MD
 
New ebay auction for Pontiac hubcaps has a picture of the car I've never seen before:

link

It's the Kosoff version with the siren, but it kind of looks like Dr. Jensen's property...
 
Kosoff

New ebay auction for Pontiac hubcaps has a picture of the car I've never seen before:

link

It's the Kosoff version with the siren, but it kind of looks like Dr. Jensen's property...

Corning (CA) is where Bobb Kosoff lives and is the seller of the hubcaps. I still think is would be nice (for lack of a better word) to have an interview with him to fill in some of the "blanks". MM
 
OMG!!!!:4_11_9: Those are the hubcaps from the JFK Ambulance!!!!:beatdeadhorse5: The Doc has them so they have to be!:bsflag2::blahblah:
Well, there stamped from the same die and made of the same steel type at least!!!:yum:
 
Hey, if you can forge a President's birth certificate, how hard can it possibly be to forge a couple letters proving this to be the real JFK ambulance??

Just kidding!! Just kidding!! :yankchain:

Please don't kill me, I had to say it! Just poking fun at conspiracy theorists :D
 
If someone wants to ask him some questions, you could use the ebay ask a question feature.

Hopefully he would reply.

It worked well with the newspaper when I contacted them.

Maybe Steve or someone with the right questions should try.

Darren
 
The article in the new issue of The Professional Car (#140) by Gregg Merksamer does a phenominal job of summarizing the highlights of this thread, the auction, and the media coverage surrounding it. Well worth the read.
 
The Pontiac-Oakland Club Magazine SMOKE SIGNALS has also devoted six full pages of its current June, 2011 issue to its own version of the story I wrote for THE PROFESSIONAL CAR. SMOKE SIGNALS Editor Don Keefe, whom I've known for many years through the Society of Automotive Historians, could not have flattered me more when he discussed the article in his column at the front of the issue, calling it "one of the finest pieces of automotive history research I have ever read." As I only summarized and distilled all the things that PCS people and JFK researchers learned about the real Bethesda ambulance, this sort of praise is something we can all share in and take credit for. :boo:
 
Gregg

Nice post brother !


SMOKE SIGNALS Editor Don Keefe, whom I've known for many years through the Society of Automotive Historians, could not have flattered me more when he discussed the article in his column at the front of the issue, calling it "one of the finest pieces of automotive history research I have ever read."


Reading that line made me proud to call you (and all PCS people) my friend !


Keep doing what you do best. We all appreciate it !


Way to go,
Darren
 
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