In looking at the lettering, the top picture of the real ambulance the lettering is somewhat higher and closer to the trim compared to the third picture.
JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction
- Thread starter Tony Blair
- Start date
One of the things to keep in mind when looking at the auto salvage yard photos of the '63 Pontiac is: (1) the work history/wear and tear on the car, and (2) the sequence of the photos and what may have happened in between those shots as the car was processed for destruction.
On the work history/wear and tear, the Kennedy Library history time line suggests the ambulance remained in service from 1963 through 1980, at which point it was diverted / donated to the Kennedy Library during the surplus property disposal process. So, what was a shiny new ambulance on Nov 22, 1963 was by 1980 a well-worn vehicle with faded paint that had apparently had a few new markings added over the years. Those markings are most visible on the salvage yard photo taken of the rear door where you can see a pair of Red Cross emblems were added, the previously discussed green stripe on the chrome bumper, and the words "Medical Department" were also added above the US Navy Registration number. Having been in the military early in my life and been in an organization that ended up with a lot of older vehicles in our organization where the next stop was salvage, this was not all that unusual. We were still driving 1965 Dodge trucks in 1979 and 1980... albeit ours had been repainted a few times: the USAF has always seemed to be a bit more particular in that way vs. the Navy and other ground forces.
Now, lets consider the sampling of 3 photos that are purportedly a subset of "two rolls of film" shot by the Kennedy Library archivist at the Salvage yard. Looking at the three photos I'll take a wild guess that:
A. The photo of the vehicle from behind where the markings on the rear door are clearly visible was taken shortly after the vehicle was delivered to the salvage yard for destruction, pretty much looking as it did when it was donated to the Kennedy Library.
B. The side view photo taken of the car sitting in the yard was probably taken later, after the vehicle was "processed" for destruction, to include having had the US Navy markings painted over or sanded-off. I suspect "extra" markings on the passenger side door above the crease line and US Navy registration number is the same "Medical Department" that appeared on the rear door... same general position and size.
C. Although not included in all the sets, there was also a photo taken of the vehicle's interior where some of us observed the US Navy nomenclature plate was missing, as evidenced by the screw holes and residual shadow of the plate. I'm still hoping the plate was removed as part of the pre-destruction processing and is kept with the paper destruction record file, and perhaps recoverable...
D. The photo of the vehicle in the crusher is obviously the last shot in the sequence where you'll note the wheels and tires had been removed as part of the pre-destruction processing.
The lettering doesn't match at all. It is in a different position, smaller, and includes extra punctuation (previously discussed). The body lines and trim of all three cars in the pictures appear to be exactly the same though. I don't see enough difference in any of them to distinguish one from another.
I do believe that he was referring to the printed lines all the time. you and I Todd think of lines as meaning something else. but as pointed out it's all moot till we receive the further proof from the library. as Dr. J will not revile either his source for the car (so no tracing Hx there) or his source for the documentation (no checking on were it came from there) so we can't find the originals of them.
if the library can produce a data plate off the crushed car and proof they took it off that car then we know for sure what we know. the library crushed the car.
then it's disprove the decoy car bit. which has been done. if I remember right it came about when the live reporters followed the wrong car just before the body was moved to the white house. easier to say decoy car then admit in the excitement you jumped to a conclusion and followed the wrong navy ambulance. this shows how alike they looked.
the one other way to prove the car is a copy. prove real one is really gone and there was no decoy.
As I mentioned earlier, at least in my mind the Scottsdale '63 Pontiac Superior "appears" to be the very same vehicle that was being offered for sale by the Central Valley Classics.
According to the Web site info, the Central Valley Classics '63 was used in several movies and has clearly been refinished with a fresh coat of paint, new lettering -- done with a lot of flair I might add -- and appears to show a lot of recent overspray in the right front wheel well: that, or it was never driven much after the repaint. The interior is also way too nice for being original.
A reply received today from the Kennedy Library indicates they did not remove the plate and don't seem to have it. Only items removed from the car were the gas tank, battery, and wheels/tires, standard procedure in scrapping. We're still working to figure out where the plate went or if they have photos of it.
We are not under the time constraint now as we were before the auction, so we can move a bit slower. But I will keep looking as I do understand the skepticism, and I'd like to put that to rest.
I would think the VIN number of the scrapped 63 would be enough info to cross reference with the records at Superior. The Superior body number should be able to be matched with the Navy number.
Of course, finding out where the Central Valley Classics '63 would certainly help. CVC must have a record of who bought it.
Of course, finding out where the Central Valley Classics '63 would certainly help. CVC must have a record of who bought it.
Thank you Steve. Yes the auction is over, but the car is still out there, and changing hands. As you say, this needs to be put to rest or it will rear it's ugly head again. It would be nice if the new owner were willing to participate.
That would be nice but don't expect Tammy Allen to allow anything that would tarnish the image of Barrett-Jackson.
David, it would be excellent if Superior could provide records for reaserch. Unfortunately none of the coachbuilders I know of retained these (now old) records. Tom McPherson can tell you MANY adventures of being granted "full access" to records rooms over the past 40 years for researching his books... only to find an empty room upon his next visit. The records were simply tossed. As coachbuilders were bought & sold over the years most detailed information is gone. The Miller-Meteor guys can tell first-hand when the Piqua, Ohio plant closed the old records were tossed in a dumpster.
I have had the rare opportunity to see some detailed information (believe it was Eureka) that Tom shared with me... and it was simply hand-written journals listing vehicle descriptions, body numbers, and who the coaches were sold to originally. So some info has been saved by our historians through the years but not much.
This new data plate observation is a very important clue. Superior used a plate which included their company name, logo, & location as pictured. The one on the Barrett-jackson ambulance was a generic military ID plate which we now know is still reproduced (and very easy to "distress" & be made to look old) it's something we overlooked before.
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I am new to your website as of this week. I signed up to post this info, but I'm not a member of PCS. I am just an employee of one of the Big 3 who just loves cars. I also love a good debate/discussion, and this one seems incredible. I have carefully compared the two letters (Hogan/Shields) that were supposedly FOIA'd to verify the numbers of the JFK car. Either the offices of these two men had identical typewriters, or both letters were typed on the same machine! Most people don't think about that in this MSOffice age. I cut-pasted several common words from the two letters into a single image. They are nearly identical, even considering the differences in contrast. In my purely amateur opinion, these letters are fake. That would also explain how the Admiral was retired by the date of his letter.
I have posted the image at Photobucket for your consideration.
Hogan-Shields Comparison
I have been told that the moderator will add the pictures when he sees this post, since I don't have the necessary post count.
I have posted the image at Photobucket for your consideration.
Hogan-Shields Comparison
I have been told that the moderator will add the pictures when he sees this post, since I don't have the necessary post count.
Attachments
Kent Dorsey
PCS Member / Funeral Director
I know this is not worthy of shutting the case, but I noticed also that with the letters that the text was very clean and straight. I have 3 typewriters here of that vintage, and even back in those days the letters would come off a little uneven and sometimes spaced oddly.
Both of those letters are pretty flawless in terms of neatness, neatness usually not available by the printing instruments in 1963...
Thanks David, that is a fantastic comparison...
Both of those letters are pretty flawless in terms of neatness, neatness usually not available by the printing instruments in 1963...
Thanks David, that is a fantastic comparison...
Jim Tighe - Deceased 1942 - 2012
March 10, 1964 - April 27 2012
There is a similar story concerning the records of Packard, when that operation was folded in June of '56 by Stude-Packard Corp. Not long after, plans were made to gather and burn all the PMCC records. The late Dick Teague, the gifted stylist responsible for the '55-'56 Packards, got wind of the planned burning. He enlisted an accomplice, and the two of them rented a semi rig. They drove to East Grand Blvd. around midnite and fast-talked their way past the guard. The trailer was backed to a loading dock and stuffed with every thing the two of them could grab. That one trailer load became the basis for much of the Packard history that has followed over the years. The rest was destroyed.
You know...you may be correct. I hadn't thought of that. Those letters could have been composed on MSOffice/WordPerfect/etc. and then 'weathered' thru repeated photocopying, etc. I was busy looking for misaligned letters (a bent typewriter arm will always produce a slightly dropped/rasied/angled letter), or dirt in the loops. I didn't find any of those defects. Or, they could have possibly been typed on an IBM Selectric (ball-type) typewriter that didn't exist in that time period.
Either way, it doesn't look good for authenticity.
And, by the way, why would the FBI or Navy investigation team think that the build information for the ambulance that carried the body of JFK to the hospital contain any relevant information regarding the investigation? I think the letter pair is a non-sequitor. (It doesn't make sense.)
glad so see your with the rest of us on that. you just pointed out one thing we had not discussed.
Yes, I definitely believe the car that BJ sold was NOT the JFK car, based purely on evidence posted here. However, the fact that the car sold for $120k (overvalued for a non-famous 63 Superior) indicates that there is still some residual 'value' attached to vehicle due to the fake JFK story.
Even though some people believe that this dead horse has been thoroughly pummelled, I think that all evidence should be on the table, whether good, bad, or ugly. Hopefully, the future potential buyers of this vehicle will read this thread and be properly educated.
Tammy Allen interviewed on FOX...
I received this video clip today from Gary Gastelu, Editor, Auto/Leisure Section and Host of Fox Car Report Live.
I received this video clip today from Gary Gastelu, Editor, Auto/Leisure Section and Host of Fox Car Report Live.
Just out of curiosity, would the Mass Registry of Motor Vehicles have been involved in the title transfer? It is (was) after all still a car. 
I realize that it was probably transferred as an artifact and not a street-legal vehicle, but if so there may be paperwork somewhere. Just wondering.
I can't say though whether the RMV would be cooperative regarding requests for info.
Seeing the Mass. plate on the car in the rearward view pre-destruction photo I wish it was a regular plate and not a dealer plate stuck in a window. Dealer plates aren't traceable to a particular car, are they?
You may have noticed on the Jalopnik blog some readers are getting impatient with the constant updates of the situation. I hope the developments continue to be discussed here.
I realize that it was probably transferred as an artifact and not a street-legal vehicle, but if so there may be paperwork somewhere. Just wondering.
I can't say though whether the RMV would be cooperative regarding requests for info.
Seeing the Mass. plate on the car in the rearward view pre-destruction photo I wish it was a regular plate and not a dealer plate stuck in a window. Dealer plates aren't traceable to a particular car, are they?
You may have noticed on the Jalopnik blog some readers are getting impatient with the constant updates of the situation. I hope the developments continue to be discussed here.
Tammy Allen made it VERY clear she was not interested in knowing if it is the real deal or not. Not sure I liked the way they presented the Professional Car Society making us look more as a bunch of kooks that just stirred this whole thing up.
Don't worry Barrett-Jackson, Tammy has your back!!!
Brad Ross
PCS Michigan Chapter President
It sounds like Ms. Allen is open to learning more about the true history of her ambulance. Good news.