JFK Pontiac ambulance up for auction

In my opinion, BJ should tell it how it is...
Let the people know that they have been recently provided with evidence that proves this is a clone of the actual car that has been destroyed.

Provide the seller with the option of keeping it or selling the car with the truth and documentation provided.

Why should it be any other way ?!

Darren
 
it will be interesting what is said at the news briefing. if they say there is evidence that that the JFK ambulance was crushed by the Kennedy library and this contradicts the documentation present with this car. then they are safe. they are not saying either is right or wrong. they will say the numbers on this car match the documentation present to them. that's because it does. since you have the big file photo can you crop the data plate on the dash and post that. what I find interesting is that the Library referred to the car with the FSN number (federal stock number). not the navy number or the superior number or the gm vin number. the side doors were painted out as they should have been the rear door lettered different then the pictures in 1963. (why not painted out?) along with red crosses and green strip on the bumper. all changes that could have been made in the 20 years the navy had the car. but all things that cast doubt for the believer and give wiggle room for the shysters in the world
 

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Jeremy D. Ledford said:
What does the green stripe on the rear bumper mean or represent?
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The green stripe is known as a "command stripe". Up until the DOD started using GSA leased vehicles, all Navy owned vehicles had a command stripe painted on the front and/or rear bumpers. The stripes were a combination of one to three stripes in various colors. This was a way to identify which command a particular vehicle was assigned to. The GSA leased vehicles started in the late 1980s/early 1990's.
 
Mike Doll said:
The green stripe is known as a "command stripe". Up until the DOD started using GSA leased vehicles, all Navy owned vehicles had a command stripe painted on the front and/or rear bumpers. The stripes were a combination of one to three stripes in various colors. This was a way to identify which command a particular vehicle was assigned to. The GSA leased vehicles started in the late 1980s/early 1990's.
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thanks I did not know this and again I have been caught making statements I know nothing about. in 63 then would the contract have been let for this set of ambulances directly by the DOD? I can say none of the cars or trucks I used in 67-71 had any painted stripes on them. nore do any of the pictures of this ambulance in 63. but the way things are done change so often that it is hard to keep up with them as to when they came into being and when they were dropped. the library car shows normal changes made to one during service. the BJ one does not
 
John ED Renstrom said:
thanks I did not know this and again I have been caught making statements I know nothing about. in 63 then would the contract have been let for this set of ambulances directly by the DOD? I can say none of the cars or trucks I used in 67-71 had any painted stripes on them. nore do any of the pictures of this ambulance in 63. but the way things are done change so often that it is hard to keep up with them as to when they came into being and when they were dropped. the library car shows normal changes made to one during service. the BJ one does not
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I am fairly certain that in '63, the contract for these ambulances would have been spec'd by the Navy for their needs within DOD guidelines. The contract would have been let by and funded by the Navy. After WW II rarely did the DOD spec out a certain type of vehicle and deliver them to various branches, i.e. the DOD buy 10 dump trucks and give 5 to the Army, 3 to the Navy and 2 to the Air Force. Each branch of service was generally permitted to write their own specs and let their own contracts.

The "command" stripe was unique to Navy commercial vehicles. Forward area "tactical" vehicles usually didn't have them. I'm not sure exactly when the Navy began the practice of the command stripe, but I believe it was in the 1950s.

You are right about the regulations constantly changing on military vehicle marking standards.
 
Steve Lichtman said:
All interested,

Besides my e-mail yesterday, one of the JFK researchers who has also been working on this, David Lifton, sent an e-mail this morning to Steve Davis of Barrett-Jackson. David's e-mail was much more strongly worded than mine, including comments about violating Federal law and FBI investigations. Boy did he get their attention.

Here is the response he received from Steve Davis (forwarded by Linda Strazzara of B-J on Davis' behalf), in it's entirety (my comments in a subsequent post):

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

------ Forwarded Message
From: Linda Strazzara <LStrazzara@barrett-jackson.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jan 2011 15:11:14 -0700
To: <dlifton@earthlink.net>
Cc: Steve Davis <sdavis@barrett-jackson.com>
Conversation: Response from Barrett-Jackson
Subject: Response from Barrett-Jackson

Mr. Lifton – Steve Davis is here onsite at the auction, but reviewed your email correspondence and has asked me to provide you with his response below. Please contact us if you have any questions.

Linda Strazzara
Barrett-Jackson Auction Co. LLC

**

Mr. Lifton,

Thank you for contacting us about the "JFK Ambulance" consigned to the Barrett-Jackson auction this week. As you are no doubt aware, there has been a great deal of discussion surrounding this vehicle by members of various collector car enthusiast groups as well as Kennedy researchers such as yourself.

We have attempted to conduct as much independent research as possible in the context of offering this vehicle for sale at our auction, and our efforts have included both a detailed physical inspection as well as the review of all documentation available to us. We do not hold ourselves out to be historians, and certainly not experts in the particular area of history surrounding the unfortunate events of November 1963 and the Kennedy assassination. Nevertheless, we have been immersed in reviewing and responding to inquiries such as yours for the past two weeks.

We take great pride in is our reputation in the collector car auction business, and I can assure you that we have no intention of presenting any misinformation about any vehicle we sell across our auction block. We work with each of our consignors, including the owner of this vehicle, to review the information provided and clarify or correct any representations as necessary. These efforts are ongoing up to the time a vehicle crosses the block and is announced to interested bidders in attendance, and this is certainly true in the context of this particular vehicle.

As of today’s date, we are planning a media briefing here at the event site on Friday morning. At this time, we will present an overview of the results of our own investigation and physical inspection as well as a summary of the documentation that we have reviewed in connection with this vehicle. We are planning to post video from this media briefing on our website with the description of the vehicle (which is in our sale as Lot #1277 on the auction list).

It's important to understand that Barrett-Jackson is not affirmatively making any representations as to the history or particular provenance of this car, and we will be clear about all of these facts with the bidders who register at auction to participate in the sale of this vehicle. What we are trying to do is uphold the high standard we've set for ourselves in following up on legitimate inquiries and questions related to a vehicle as important as the Kennedy ambulance. We are certain we will hear many other questions in the next several days as we prepare for the auction sale, and we will consider all of them in due course and will continue to use our best professional judgment in resolving any issues we deem to be material to the representation of the car.

Thank you for contacting us, and thank you for taking an interest in the collector car hobby.

Steve Davis
President
Barrett-Jackson Auction Co. LLC

From: Steve Davis [mailto:sdavis@barrett-jackson.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 9:44 AM



Steve Davis
President
Barrett-Jackson Auction Company, L.L.C.
7400 E. Monte Cristo
Scottsdale, AZ 85260

P. 480.421.6694
F. 480.421.6697
sdavis@barrett-Jackson.com
www.barrett-jackson.com <http://www.barrett-jackson.com>
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Could you post a copy of Mr. Liton's email for us to read?
 
If you go to their website, the car is still listed as the car used to transport JFK...
Maybe I'm wrong here, but after reading Steve Davis' most recent reply, and seeing all of the evidence Steve Lichtman has assembled... I am not sure a "high standard" is being adhered to...
 
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You know Ed's post above revealed another very important clue. When looking at Ed's post where he has 2 pix of the back of the ambulance for comparison... something jumped out at me this morning. If you look at the photo of the back door with JFK's casket inside you'll notice that the font of the letters is odd. The numbers "94-49196" are stenciled, yet they are unique because the "94-49" are in a slightly larger (and offset) font than the "196" and that lettering IS consistent with the one crushed in 1986... they are that same odd placement & sizes. (note that over the years the "medical department" lettering was stenciled and the red crosses, but that font for the numbers is consistent)

So the JFK footage matches the one being crushed. But it does not match the lettering on the back door of the "unrestored original" one at Barrett-Jackson.

Note that the font on the back door of the BJ ambulance has 100% consistent lettering AND it's placed higher on the door. The only 2 that match is clear to see. I'll link all 3 pictures for comparison:

97432_Rear_3-4_Web.jpg


attachment.php
 
Dwayne, that's a very good point. I also notice that the letter "S" in US is taller than the other letters on the back door between the b&w photo and the scrapyard photo, but the letters are the same height on the car to be auctioned. Additionally, the spacing is "U S Navy", with apparently equal space between the U and S, and S and N. On the car to be auctioned, there is less space between the U and the S than there is between the S and the N. We've already covered the fact that the lettering on the front doors is obviously a different size and font on the auction car.
 
I think we are all pretty clear on which is real an which is not, but you have to look at it at Barrett Jacksons point of view as well. We all know and respect Steve Lichtman and believe the research he has done is valid, but they likely have never heard of him before a couple days ago. They need to give their consignor the same courtesy of reviewing all the information before making a decision, and that takes time. I think they are doing the right thing just by addressing it at all. Given all the facts I still don't think you can prove the fate of the car either way, only cast an enormous amount of doubt on the one up for auction.

Something else that occurred to me today is that the current owner supposedly came across the documents connecting the ID numbers through the freedom of information act. If those documents came along with the car when he bought it I would suspect them of being fake, but he is supposedly a respectable guy, so if he did get them through the FOIA, what does that mean in all of this? I'm sure that's the type of thing BJ is trying to get straight.
 
Comparing the 3 Cars with 1998 Kossoff Photos

I haven't posted in a long time, but I have at least 3 photos of the Kossoff car from a 1998 meet in Southern CA, from another angle to the one posted a couple days ago. The orange and white Lifeliner with the lightbar is next to it. I'm sorry that I'm not up and running to scan and post this photo.

I took a 3/4 right front shot, an interior shot from the right door inward, and a 3/4 right rear shot.

Here are my views:

Antenna 1 Setup:

In my 3/4 right rear photo, there's a small rectangular slot in the right rear next to the loading door, about level with the bottom of the right taillight. I've been told it's for a small antenna. The B-J car is different - it has a circular hole and grommet at that spot. The Kennedy Library car doesn't appear to have either one, but the shot is a bit blurred for close-ups like that.

Antenna 2 Setup:

The video of the B-J car also shows a circular plate with 3 holes in the blanked out left side rear window area - for a whip antenna. The Kennedy Library car also has this. I don't have any photos of the Kossoff car for comparison.

Bumper: Kossoff's right bumper top is askew from the taillight. The B-J car's right bumper is jammed against the taillight.

Beacon Lense. The cars have different sized beacon lenses.

Both cars have polished military ID tags on the dashboard.

My conclusion - I'm still in doubt that the Kossoff car and the B-J car are the same car. I was certain in 1998 that the Kossoff car was not the Kennedy Library car.

On military ID plates - I'm going to check my Crown Coach factory records for buses delivered to various branches - I believe that the military ID plate and its government-mandated specifications comes directly from the manufacturer, and that the government either provides the ID plate or gives them a design template diagram of the setup and instructions on where to mount the plate.

Tom Shafer
 
I did notice last night that the JFK Ambulance is going on the block on sat ?
did anyone see the early 50's Black Cadillac factory limousine with blocked qtr's maybe a Derham if i got the name right parked right next to it .
 
Steve Lichtman said:
Dwayne, that's a very good point. I also notice that the letter "S" in US is taller than the other letters on the back door between the b&w photo and the scrapyard photo, but the letters are the same height on the car to be auctioned. Additionally, the spacing is "U S Navy", with apparently equal space between the U and S, and S and N. On the car to be auctioned, there is less space between the U and the S than there is between the S and the N. We've already covered the fact that the lettering on the front doors is obviously a different size and font on the auction car.
Click to expand...

ALSO, the "casket" car and the "soon-to-be-crushed car" have no periods after the "U" and "S" but the B-J car has periods after the "U" and "S"...
 
Some FORENSIC calculations:

I'm using some of my forensic background here comparing the lettering on the three cars. Using the three photos within this thread:

The "casket" car exhibits 43.3% of the total height of the rear door to be above the lettering and 47.5% of the total height of the rear door is below the lettering. The "soon-to-be-crushed" car exhibits 44.4% of the total height of the rear door to be above the lettering and 47.6% of the total height of the rear door is below the lettering. The "casket" car's lettering is somewhat blurry but I did my best to measure accurately and these two sets of numbers are statistically nearly identical. The "B-J" car exhibits 35.1% of the total height of the rear door to be above the lettering and 53.3% of the total height of the rear door is below the lettering. NOTE: The percentages don’t add up to 100% because the lettering takes up a small percentage of the total height of the doors. I hope this makes sense. Also, these are rudimentary measurements and were not obtained scientifically. Jim
 
Jeremy D. Ledford said:
Another thought occurred to me today, wasn't the Kossoff car used in the filming of the movie JFK back in the early 1990's?
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I do believe I have heard that also. bet the contract information just reviled is the way it was to. that throws more doubt on the BJ cars(it's not really there's) documentation. if the DOD or the navy it's self let the contract why would they have to ask about it.

as for the lettering, it's not what was on the car in 63. on the library car you can see were the original has been painted out and new stenciled over the gray. it's common practice in the military. don't forget this ain't no show car. when they changed from the simple number to the medical department us nave and number all they would have done is blocked out the old with a brush or roller or spray bomb and re stenciled over it. you can see this was done on the library car. the small red crosses were added some time also. as for the command strip. I do recall some other conversation on that. I just don't remember any I drove on the base in Beeville Tx having it. got to be duty driver on a navel air station for about 6 months in 68. but hay it was a air dale base and in Tx. as dark as it is in the video it could be on the car then. fuzzy as I'm on the 60s every car I drove could have had one. what tripped my bell on the BJ car is how close it was to the car in 63. that and there statement that it was a un restored just as found car. nothing stays the same in the military not for 20 years. but it would be interesting if they did miss that little detail

but it's nice we are getting the free press along with BJ. but they snatched the picture unless Steve gave it to them. nothing put on the net is yous once the send key is hit.

Tom if you send the pictures to me I'll post them here. like some one said all you got to do is ask the man if he still has the car. that would clear that up. be nice if there are a two of them out there.
 
Does anyone know WHY the library would crush the car...after the Navy held on to it so long and it is an important part of history? Is it possible that after the Library got the car from the Navy, they determined that it was really NOT the JFK ambulance so they crushed it? Would they really crush the car because Bobby Kennedy (who had been dead almost 20 years by then) wanted it crushed? If Bobby wanted the car crushed, wouldn't he have had that done in the 60's?
 
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