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Old 09-19-2016, 10:18 PM
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Kurt Arends Kurt Arends is offline
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Default '60 S&S Combo

This one will be fun to watch!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-Cadilla...16.m2516.l5255
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Old 09-19-2016, 11:29 PM
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if it hits the reserve let us know it will make some one a nice combo.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:36 AM
Kerry Bogard Kerry Bogard is offline
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Have looked at this one closely. Def. 'sponge worthy' as Elaine would say on "Seinfeld".
1. Always worries me when someone posts, ''ran when I parked it". That really leaves the door open on a full rebuild of the motor. If it DOESN'T run, it becomes a case of ''oh, well, it DID when I parked it". Boo-hoo.
2. Mileage at "42,000". More like 142,000 or more. Some of these old Cad's have broken speedo's as well. However, (on the positive side) the steering wheel does look like low miles.
3. It will have to be stripped to bare metal. Big bucks. There's only one way to make peeling paint go away.
4. "Rats ate the title". Most States will not accept a damaged or altered title (especially if they ate where crucial #'s are). You might ask for a photo so you can take it down to your local DMV and ask BEFORE you send off your hard earned money. If the varmits ate the title , it must have been in the glovebox. Did they also dine on the wiring?
4a. If the seller is so adamant about getting the car off his property in "15 days", will he HELP you straighten out the title mess? This would make one h___ of a planter in the yard.
5. Headliner. Ugh. These are expensive, The wind lace is shot also.
6. "Cracked windshield". Another super expensive replacement unless you want a repro. Shipping is also not cheap. Most States require a excellent windshield for driving. Don't think your car ins. co. is going to endorse buying a Commercial Windshield a few months after you buy it.
7. "Extra Chrome". I don't have measuring tapes in my eyeballs but, I'ask if its off a Sedan or actually off 'another' Hearse/Combo ( way diff. lengths). The rocker chrome (actually stainless) is crushed in several places.
8. The chrome 'looks good' on the rear shot but, on the close-up of the rear door there's a pile of rust bubbles in the center. Re-chroming Bumpers is expensive. I just did one on my '59.
9. And the list goes on... a great S&S Coach but, be prepared to jump into a significant resto. It won't be ready for Halloween (this year), Ha-ha.
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Old 09-21-2016, 09:55 AM
Brady D Smith Brady D Smith is offline
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Default Many of us know the seller.

The location of this car indicates a seller well known in the hobby. He has many, and I mean a great many, professional cars. I expect you can get pretty honest answers to any questions you ask him.
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Old 09-21-2016, 11:01 AM
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all you got to do is want the car bad enough to put money into it. none of them are cheap cars to redo.
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Old 09-21-2016, 07:44 PM
Kerry Bogard Kerry Bogard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brady D Smith View Post
The location of this car indicates a seller well known in the hobby. He has many, and I mean a great many, professional cars. I expect you can get pretty honest answers to any questions you ask him.
I appreciate your viewpoint. But, my concern is to educate our 'younger' club members who look at this project through rose-colored glasses and think they can make it WHOLE, for 4-5 grand, and then quickly find themselves buried. For those (experienced), old-timers like Ed, who know what it costs to make this a running-driving Coach, based on the language of a seller one can be lead one down a primrose path, Loaded with Thorns. It looks like its being stored at a farm in North Carolina, in a lean-to infested with "rats" and, what could be, an un-marketable title, with a cracked $1500 windshield, on a motor that most likely could need rebuilt- according to the seller......
so is this, for certain, the well-known, trustworthy multiple coach owner, you think lives in that area of the Country, that you are vouching for? Just want to be sure before I call him....
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Old 09-21-2016, 08:57 PM
Cary Livingston Cary Livingston is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Bogard View Post
I appreciate your viewpoint. But, my concern is to educate our 'younger' club members who look at this project through rose-colored glasses and think they can make it WHOLE, for 4-5 grand, and then quickly find themselves buried. For those (experienced), old-timers like Ed, who know what it costs to make this a running-driving Coach, based on the language of a seller one can be lead one down a primrose path, Loaded with Thorns. It looks like its being stored at a farm in North Carolina, in a lean-to infested with "rats" and, what could be, an un-marketable title, with a cracked $1500 windshield, on a motor that most likely could need rebuilt- according to the seller......
so is this, for certain, the well-known, trustworthy multiple coach owner, you think lives in that area of the Country, that you are vouching for? Just want to be sure before I call him....
The car and the owner are well known to those knowledgeable in the hobby. One can make any assumptions they want. I know the car, touched and felt the car while it was stored IN A GARAGE shoehorned among other more desirable models and years. I may even make a go for it myself. I seem to recall this one was "rescued" over 20 years ago possibly from behind a funeral home in the south. Another of his cars that had sat for 20 years was pushed out of its garage, hot battery installed, gas poured down carb and fired off and ran fine (well as fine as one would expect after a 20 year slumber)...oh wait we had to file the points first as well. As for the spare chrome the seller knows his sh!t better than most anyone in this club. The title "issue" doesnt scare me but thankfully I fled FL years ago and do not have to deal the the DMV there anymore. Call him.....
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Old 09-22-2016, 01:07 PM
Attila Bethlenfalvy Attila Bethlenfalvy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Bogard View Post
Have looked at this one closely. Def. 'sponge worthy' as Elaine would say on "Seinfeld".
1. Always worries me when someone posts, ''ran when I parked it". That really leaves the door open on a full rebuild of the motor. If it DOESN'T run, it becomes a case of ''oh, well, it DID when I parked it". Boo-hoo.
2. Mileage at "42,000". More like 142,000 or more. Some of these old Cad's have broken speedo's as well. However, (on the positive side) the steering wheel does look like low miles.
3. It will have to be stripped to bare metal. Big bucks. There's only one way to make peeling paint go away.
4. "Rats ate the title". Most States will not accept a damaged or altered title (especially if they ate where crucial #'s are). You might ask for a photo so you can take it down to your local DMV and ask BEFORE you send off your hard earned money. If the varmits ate the title , it must have been in the glovebox. Did they also dine on the wiring?
4a. If the seller is so adamant about getting the car off his property in "15 days", will he HELP you straighten out the title mess? This would make one h___ of a planter in the yard.
5. Headliner. Ugh. These are expensive, The wind lace is shot also.
6. "Cracked windshield". Another super expensive replacement unless you want a repro. Shipping is also not cheap. Most States require a excellent windshield for driving. Don't think your car ins. co. is going to endorse buying a Commercial Windshield a few months after you buy it.
7. "Extra Chrome". I don't have measuring tapes in my eyeballs but, I'ask if its off a Sedan or actually off 'another' Hearse/Combo ( way diff. lengths). The rocker chrome (actually stainless) is crushed in several places.
8. The chrome 'looks good' on the rear shot but, on the close-up of the rear door there's a pile of rust bubbles in the center. Re-chroming Bumpers is expensive. I just did one on my '59.
9. And the list goes on... a great S&S Coach but, be prepared to jump into a significant resto. It won't be ready for Halloween (this year), Ha-ha.
Much respect when disseminating facts. None whatsoever when merely sharing opinion however - as in above abhorrent dissection - which is deserved of more potent counter.

1. You've not looked at this coach closely Kerry. What you've merely looked at are medium resolution pictures. Had you actually made trip to inspect, those bullet points would have been rendered moot. "Sponge worthy" does not equate to a small strip (less than 6") just inside driver's door that has some peppering from door seal having deteriorated when still in service.

2. If/when it stops raining, I'll happily assist owner in making run, solely to post a video for naysayers like yourself who fixate on worst case scenario.

3. 42,830 miles is actual, legit, and proven. Park Row initially served a firm in small town Hamlet, NC. (Where repaint from black to white happened when still in service.) Pugh FH in Carthage, NC purchased for nostalgia, replacing a '60 S&S originally owned, sometime in '80s. (Unknown when exactly retired from original Hamlet firm or how long remained in indoors storage there.) Became one of five vintage coaches Pugh had yet did not use. They were responsible for a few years of open sided shed storage where wind/elements started to take hold of cosmetics. Was acquired from Pugh (still in business as Pugh & Smith FH) in '91.

4. Title damage was done prior to ownership and subsequent real rat free garage parking in Spring, '94. Last inspected in '86.

5. Seller has had many buyers take advantage of good nature in past, not paying or leaving vehicles for years of free storage. If vehicle is paid for as specified within allotted amount, he does allow more transport time when asked. He believes stating such a short window however cuts down on time wasters like yourself.

6. Any competent auto upholsterer can reuse headliner. Replacing rear wind lace and reattaching when remainder has no tears does not necessitate replicating nor expenditure in entirety. And headliner is not alone. With careful cleaning/detailing, majority of interior is reusable.



7. Factor cost of windshield into purchase and repairs. Which, btw, is nowhere near your claim. When latest batch of reproductions went offshore, price dropped to $775. If after $125 for crating and xxx for shipping you arrive at $1500 - you've either done something wrong or have been taken advantage of - either of which is a perfectly acceptable scenario.

Or one could put nose to grindstone and find originals that fit better for less. I can. Even in '16. Two additional spares acquired this summer. NFS.



8. Additional stainless moldings are correct lengths for S&S. Making a ludicrous claim otherwise bases off assumption owner does not know what he has. The man has more significant '59s and '60s than you can ever "Dream" of owning. He's a real world authority with 40 years of vintage procar experience/ownership. Carl Woerner remains sole person in US who owns/has owned more. Don't let a southern item description fool you into thinking otherwise. Why in the world would anyone even complain about receiving extra moldings is beyond me. Moldings on coach are complete. Seller could just as easily have listed these separately to assist another.

9. Even if there is a perceived rear bumper chrome blemish, accept that your narrow view of perfection for a 56 year old unrestored survivor is not equally desired across board.



10. Significant resto? Sure. Far less significant than if rotted or incomplete - facts completely glossed over. Look at every '59 or '60 that has come to market within last couple years. VERY hard pressed finding a better basis for restoration at price point. (Stated knowing reserve full well which is under market value.) When properly done, '59s and (20% less as value gap continues to slowly narrow) '60s are worth money spent.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kerry Bogard View Post
I appreciate your viewpoint. But, my concern is to educate our 'younger' club members who look at this project through rose-colored glasses and think they can make it WHOLE, for 4-5 grand, and then quickly find themselves buried. For those (experienced), old-timers like Ed, who know what it costs to make this a running-driving Coach, based on the language of a seller one can be lead one down a primrose path, Loaded with Thorns. It looks like its being stored at a farm in North Carolina, in a lean-to infested with "rats" and, what could be, an un-marketable title, with a cracked $1500 windshield, on a motor that most likely could need rebuilt- according to the seller......
so is this, for certain, the well-known, trustworthy multiple coach owner, you think lives in that area of the Country, that you are vouching for? Just want to be sure before I call him....
11. PCS has current issue attracting 'younger' members. Genuinely not a concern. This is about you solely, your stale tactics as a dealer brow beating a seller providing wild assumptions for potential personal gain. Call it like it is. Your ingrained used car salesman transfusion vastly outshines any remnant of being a collector left in your blood. Vitriol should spew towards any seller not doing research when ignorantly/expectantly pricing a vehicle well out of any acceptable market, aiming for unprecedented stratospheric greedy heights. Far from the case with this '60 Park Row.

12. Owner/seller has read through this post. Perhaps anybody who brought points up here before emailing same beliefs through eBay albeit with less dramatics/negativity should not remain expectant of a response there. When someone sets public precedence for being problematic, who would blame a seller for not wanting to provide an outlet for it to continue..?

13. Best guidance provided for any 'younger' members is to take any and every bit of "advice" from a dealer with a grain of salt (if not disregard in entirety). Had this been a sale advertised from a dealer in Mount Dora, FL, price would have been 4x higher.

Coach was "claimed" by someone who has not followed through when shifted out of long term slumber. Otherwise, would not be outdoors. Please excuse owner for desiring to pass along after 24 years of *indoor* (prior to shift) temporary guardianship before Park Row sits out through winter. Gawd forbid he does something for betterment of coach. One is either capable of recognizing value or not.
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Old 09-22-2016, 06:18 PM
Kerry Bogard Kerry Bogard is offline
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Gosh Atti; You must have had a dictionary on your lap to compose such an eloquent e-mail thread. I'm surprised it posted. I won't bother answering all of your contrived remarks or waste my time defending my reputation. Yours is well known. I welcome the readership here to simply enter our names in a Google Search and '' the truth shall set me free". I have a 27 year blemish free reputation. There's a huge difference between what you sell and what I sell. That's okay, I suppose. My customers know the difference and come back repeatedly..... Some Other Sellers: can never be found again?

Despite your claims, I have no hidden agenda except to join -in the foray with fellow members on our private format and point out the hallmarks of what certainly appears to be some shortages in the description in this listing. Did you write it? Can Clear Title to this coach be guaranteed by you or this seller(?)...otherwise you end up with Yard Art. Questions that need too be asked: Seems like someone would run the rat eaten title BEFORE offering it on the Market! Is a seller 'jumping title' or does he actually own the Coach? I have no clue who this seller is but, all my observations were honest. ...a result of wasting tons of my time going to look at misrepresented / 'over-puffed cars'. I'm not in a contest to see who can own the most.

BTW; (after Cary's input) fact is, I called the seller to ask more questions so, I could offer some (positive) facts- but, no answer... nor, did he ever call me back. So, we are clear: you can paint whatever picture you want but, I have no hidden agenda here. I'm not the only person here, who has remarked "this could be an expensive restoration". You need to go back and READ this portion of the PCS website for the last 3-4 years. The dissecting(comments) on listings is part and parcel of what make a a Team Effort as we all make note of great coaches and not-so-great ones! Your deliberate, lame attempt to connect me to converting anyone, or to sell this beauty "for 4x what he's asking" is beyond humorous.
Some of the simple facts are: I suggested a proposed buyer ask about the moldings as I can't tell you how many times I have bought a car with promised 'extra' moldings and none of them matched- especially on a hearse purchase.
That : original windshields are considerably more expensive then you claim UNLESS they are (Un-tinted) repops...which is what I stated: So are the two you show @$775 ea. + flat shipping????: (that should be relative to where the end-user lives!) Mmm, I bet not.
That: just because you dump some gas down the throat of a carburetor and it chugs to life (after filing the points) does not mean you're going to be cruising down the road anytime soon.
That: the coach obviously needs brakes, stripped to be painted properly and as rust on the bumper that will require more then a rattle-can spray job.
That: It was obviously stored outside for some time so, asking to clarify "what is INSIDE storage" is valid? And, maybe how long inside?

You make light of a headliner. I don't use 3M glue to fix mine. Once its soaked, its like a wet pillow & dries to a 'crunchy' pillow, which stinks and spits out powder. I just had wind lace piping replaced on my '59 S&S (partition removed) and it was $1500. So, why single me out??? We all realize Its For Restoration!
The list goes on....
Guys that try and paint ALL licensed/ bonded dealers as 'bad guys' are terribly negative & short-sided. You circulate on a completely different plain. I own all my cars and sell off a few totally restored coaches, or mint original, when I find a rarer one for my collection. Gosh, I think there may be MORE then a few of us that do that!
The cars and parts you sell are 'For Restoration'. That's perfectly fine. But, to spout venom about me when you've never met me, or have ever been here to see my cars, is pathetic.
Maybe its time to realize that it's guys like us (more then a few of us in the Club), that are responsible for the Coaches RISING in value as cherished classic collectibles, not languishing behind the barns anymore. I have been on the Advisory Board of the NADA Classic Guide for over 20 years and have done my darn-dest to pump life into these old Coach values ~ previously totally ignored. Since the results have been all positive, how can you throw stones? Is this about turning your cars DOWN??
..... finally, to telephone me today and call me names (POS) is incredibly immature and underlines the mentality of the caller.
Thanks for adding more photo's.. I'm sure somebody will find it a good home.
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Old 09-22-2016, 06:58 PM
Clay Sellick Clay Sellick is offline
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Nice looking coach for sure, needs alittle love around the edges, but I guess the the issue's gravity co relate with the buyers personal tastes. As just a nice driver, 5000$ invested seems reasonable. For a meticulous restorer, it would cost more(show paint job, nut/bolt restore) no need to get worked up on ether viewpoints. The main thing is somebody gets it back on the road
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