NFDA sneak peek

the gun slots for side glass kills them for me. the lincoln as least has windows.
they look like a pill box on wheels. one expects to see the glass drop down and gun barrels pop out.
 
Attila Bethlenfalvy said:
There's a problem with those of you choosing to compare new coaches to old. There is no comparison - which is a given. Try comparing new coaches to one another instead. That's the only feasible, working approach. Coach builders are far more drastically limited by manufacturers nowadays. FHs & FDs still require coaches regardless of opinions regarding current crop as a whole.

So do these flying cheese wedges look great? Not so much. Are there some that have more thought into them than others? Yes. Do they look better than some of the other new hearses available? Absolutely.

Keep in mind with so many similar offerings from different companies two key factors which differentiate are fit/finish and price point. More on this later.

[Some images borrowed from FB posts.]

Let's start with Vaca's latest, a true abortion on wheels. Too many styles melded together. Clunky overall. Fit/finish isn't anywhere near US offerings either. Never bothered asking price as impression was received that Vaca is more into making one-off creations. They likely display looking for that odd FD looking for something truly special.

If head of casket goes in last, wouldn't headliner be upside down?

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While immersing in 'hideous', if price points are same (and these are very close to Cadillac brethren), how many of you would opt for a Superior Lincoln Diplomat, S&S Lincoln Majestic, Federal MKT, or an Eagle Kingsley over a comparable XTS base procar? These behemoths are *huge*, chunky, with no dignified presence nor design flow. Note obscene Majestic rear loading door hinge.

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Lest anyone think I'm being biased against Lincoln platform, Cadillac does not survive unscathed in this department. Only Beldar Conehead could be proud of the absurd roof height (and subsequent taper) of an S&S Masterpiece/Medalist or Superior Statesman. Gnarly. Double FAIL for Masterpiece in limo style category.

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Moving along into limo styles... Much buzz about new Federal Renaissance. Their display model was a rough non-working example. Fit and finish were lacking and it definitely showed. Seems rushed to make deadline. With so much excitement and other dealers taking/anticipating debut, perhaps my expectation was too high. I was underwhelmed to say the least. From 20' it isn't bad. Not showing in pics are horrid gigantic inward, concave roof scallops. (Which an intentional light color helps hide.) Simple things like window moldings didn't line up. Known issue with same sunroof leaking in Eagle Echelon. (Percentage of them problematic I can't say.) Rear window does align with taillight - small plus.

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For those who don't know, the same person who purchased Eagle later purchased Federal before moving Federal to same production facility as Eagle. In doing so, Federal went from a lesser priced option to receiving an uptick in quality, ruffling some Eagle dealers feathers. Federal now introducing a new limo style has made some Eagle dealers likewise unhappy (both being SVG parent company), further muddying waters between the two identities while potentially cutting into Eagle dealers' protected territories sales (while increasing protected Federal dealer territory sales).

Will Renaissance quality improve from model exhibited? It has to. Will that 'fix' really poor roof design? No.

Next we'll look at comparably priced similar Platinum Phoenix-R limo style.
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Atti, well said about people need to compare the new models with each other instead of the older coaches. As Ive mentioned many times, I love most of the new offerings, but I like the sleek modern look (many of the old coaches were boxy, square, no style in my opinion too).
I like the limo style offerings if they flow well (unlike the Masterpiece), and Im a S&S lover, but I do not like that many are putting drapes in the door windows, but not the quarter. Put them in all, or none.
Is it just a shadow, or does that Federal have darker paint on the rear quarter? As for the comment about the skylights leaking, yes I know of many that had this issue, even my friends Echelon leaked from day one, but he sent it back to Eagle and they made it right and it has not leaked since, so far and its been a few years.
Personally I would have a hard time choosing between a Cadillac and Lincoln offering, again I love them all.
I agree with the vaca, I like the design, but iffy about the LaSalle front end on it, I would have liked to see one of their complete LaSalle looking coaches.
Any idea what the retail on the Platinum Cortege is?
 
Some history on Platinum first for those who didn't read/have access to last TPC. Mike Kellerman started Eagle. Mike Kellerman sold Eagle in '08. He had a 5 year no compete clause in contract. Know what he did for 5 years? Thought about how to make funeral cars better in every aspect - design, product, and value. He in essence launched Platinum Funeral Coaches (comprising of Platinum, MK, and K2) as soon as those 5 years were up. Each company is headed by a different family member. MANY of his longtime employees have subsequently left Eagle and gone back to work for the Kellerman family, preferring operational familiarity.

So while Platinum may be a new name to the marketplace, those behind it are not new to industry.

Platinum Phoenix-R was not at NFDA Expo. Only a few non-artistic Photoshop images floating around so far as it is also a new model, debuting a couple months ago. Federal Renaissance window treatment looks strangely similar for a competitor, doesn't it? Phoenix-R absolutely crushes Federal counterpart in fit/finish department however. Rule of thumb with Platinum offerings is that when matched up with current Eagle models, Platinum starts $5-6k less per model! Another big difference.

Platinum-R also has a crown roof molding option and I believe one is being built currently. Losing rear window drip rail has already been brought up. Will take more Phoenix-R captures next trip retrieving new coaches from factory.

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Back to Armbruster-Stageway since going over limo styles. Sean Myers has done more styling with chassis than the rest, taking more cues from the past. His influence undoubtedly stems from owning several vintage coaches - counting '59, '65, and '70 Superiors among them.

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This concludes American made limo styles.

Continuing with Armbruster-Stageway, Crown Sovereign is another new model which made debut. Note how roof band is arched forward on A-S offerings. Those clear partition corners really help with shoulder checks. Another nice touch is integrating whichever wood is chosen for rear loading deck into sconce panels and rear loading door panel.

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Caught PCS member Kenny Howe sneaking in to check out his new S&S Victoria. Its roof line is drastically better than Masterpiece. Ironically, S&S no longer uses clear partition corners. Manual floor extension takes failure factor away, ingeniously sliding at an angle down under floor, disappearing, when not in use.

Rear interior embroidered sconce panel treatment came across as an afterthought, not tying in nor matching dignified stature rest of coach exudes.

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Federal Heritage. No frills, rather plain. Note roof band is near vertical.

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SVG's other Cadillac staple, Eagle Ultimate. Base price is right around $92.5k give or take, noninclusive of options. Note roof band is slightly canted forward, relating more of a sense of motion even when standing still. Solid design, fit/finish, etc overall for price point.

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Worth mentioning all '15 model coaches (regardless of builder) will come equipped with back up cameras.
 
Due to an usually busy week, I wasn't able to make the convention and was sorely disappointed. I haven't had a chance to see the "next generation" coaches in person, so I was looking forward to getting the chance to see them. Thanks to Atti for taking the time to post photos and offer his very astute observations about the state of coach building in 21st century North American.

With that being said, allow me to offer some observations of my own.

I agree with not comparing the old coaches with the new. As much as we may want to see it, we will never see fins on a Cadillac ever again. So, what the coachbuilders are left with are awful base cars. (I'm personally looking forward to the 2016 Cadillac LTS and hope it is the base for commercial vehicles. Lincoln? Just give up already with the SUV)

From my perspective, when I look at any coach, I take it as a whole. Here are some of the questions I ask myself when looking at a coach and deciding if it is one that I would want parked in front of the funeral home: Does the coachbuilder enhance the design of the platform car or detract from it? Do the lines flow or not? Does it look like something that GM or Lincoln would design in their own studios and build at their own factories? Is fit and finish of the quality one would expect from Cadillac or Lincoln?

From my perspective, the only coach that answers my questions positively, would be the Platinum offerings. The lines flow and their design looks natural on the Cadillac chassis. While I can't speak to fit and finish, these cars look mighty fine. The other finishers? Armbruster-Stageway comes close although the roofline looks a little funny. The new redesign of the Accubuilt offerings come in third. The others would be considered "also-rans" with the Masterpiece being anything but.

Finally, does last years offerings from Accubuilt remind anyone of the fiasco of the 1985 Superior Cadillac FWD? The hideous Masterpiece gives way to the more proportional Victoria is essentially a repeat of 1985.

Just my 2 cents worth!
 
as I see it.

With the demise of so many smaller funeral homes and the big surge in larger groups swallowing up homes,coupled with the increasing trend to cremation funeral coaches will never return to the past glory as I see it,and the people building them have fewer and fewer customers,where am I going with this, well,you folks with the older beauties please care for them, and baby them, and keep them going because as it is said with real estate,buy land cause they aren't building it anymore.as with car based ambulances we are lucky so many survive cause that's all we got.my 2 cents.:)
 
You're right. To be fair, we should compare the contemporary cars to each other and not their predecessors. But, all of the current abortions have some design elements in common. In each and every one of them, the landau bows are placed too high - these should never exceed the height of the side windows. They all appear to be 4 to 6 inches too long to achieve a good design balance. They have made them as long as Cadillac has allowed - with no thought for design balance. The makers are playing inch-games - trying to one-up the competition by having the longest rear floor length. This is unnecessary as all that is really required is a length of 105 to 110 inches with an inside height of 38-42.5 inches. Most of them - especially the initial Superior, S&S and Federal cars - are too high and look like flying door stops. It has been repeatedly reported that Cadillac has prohibited the changing of the A-pullars to accommodate commercial glass. This is probably true. However, the Cadillac platform currently being used is structurally identical to that used by Buick and Chevrolet. It is the basic Opel Insignia platform. having said that, one has to look no further that the UK to find current Vauxhall/Opel Insignia models transformed into funeral cars - complete with commercial glass. (http://limousines.co.uk/vauxhall/vauxhall-traditional-hearse/). Yeah, they're ugly in the usual English manner (for readers in the UK, I'm sorry 'bout that but, it's true) but, they are fitted with commercial glass. Now, Vauxhall/Opel are members of the GM family just as Cadillac is. So...one would think that someone at one of the American coachbuilders could take this case to GM's powers that be and get an exemption for these "commercial vehicles". What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
 
I agree the landau bars are placed too high, but it is not something new, this has been an issue since at least the late 1980s.
The game of inches, as you called it is also nothing new, coachbuilders have been playing that game since the beginning of at least the auto based professional car.
As far as commercial glass on cars overseas, they may have different safety standards or requirement's on conversions than we do here. No matter what, with less and less of these being built now, even if Cadillac did let them start modifying the A pillars, will the coachbuilders want to spend the money to use it again? Since Accubuilt no longer even builds their own coaches in house (they are now just an assembly plant), I have doubts they would go to the extra expense.
 
A couple of months ago, Don Cuzzocrea returned as the President and C.E.O. of Accubuilt. This is the same guy that was responsible for the early 90s S&S Masterpiece and the commercial glass Superior Sovereigns. At the same time, he was also responsible for turning-around and saving the troubled company. For that, the owners ungratefully dumped him. Now they've realized their mistake and that's why he's now back at the helm of S&S and Superior. An extremely astute executive with an intimate knowledge of the industry, he has an eye for design and balance and is probably the only guy in the industry today that has all of these qualities. Were I him, I'd make appointments with Mary Barra (GM C.E.O.), Dan Ammann (GM President), Johan de Nysschen (Cadillac Division's President) and Mark Reuss (GM V.P. for Global Product development), take a pile of brochures, specification sheets and photographs of the current Opel/Vauxhall commercial glass coaches and plead the case for allowing Accubuilt to be able to build well designed and balanced funeral cars with this feature - just as GM apparently allows to be done in Europe. With a skillful hand and a keen eye, commercial glass could be incorporated into the current cars and would improve the look considerably...it would also add substantially to the cost of the finished product but, at least it would be something on which a discriminating funeral directror would be proud to place his nameplates. I strongly believe that there's a case to be made for this with GM and that as "commercial vehicles" funeral coaches are exempt from some of the safety equipment requirements that apply to passenger cars - or, at least they were at one time. I think it would be worth a try.
 
John Royark JR said:
Since Accubuilt no longer even builds their own coaches in house (they are now just an assembly plant), I have doubts they would go to the extra expense.
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You may be right, John. But, with Cuzzocrea again at Accubuilt's helm, you can look for things to change in Lima. Although he had little time to have an impact on the 2015 products just recently launched, one can see that they are moving in the right direction from a design perspective. Don't underestimate what Don may do. The funeral directors have spoken with their wallets. They have largely rejected the flying door stops. It's time to give them something they will be proud to own put their nameplates on and see as an investment in their community prestige. I, for one, believe that Don Cuzzocrea is just the man to give the buyers what they desire...he understands the requiremets of the industry and has proven that when he was last in this position.
 
this was something we did to our selves with a sue the deep pockets mentality.
the air bags only work with that glass configuration. regulations or industry standard on the air bags?? I'm betting they don't have then on the european one.

but keeping the glass the same there is a lot you could have done with the roofline to get the desired effect. then the nose down attitude of the car and the up sweeping side molding just add to it. add the oversized tires and wheels and you got a clown car. which says has anyone looked at the side view of the a 70s car. from a block away. they all look like something got dropped on them and the nose is bent up at the cowl.

I'm still of the nature of drop the car it doesn't work and make one out of the truck offering. there is a platform you can work with change the nose have a open frame to build any body onto all they need to do is get it down on the ground. who would not love to have a 40's carve side to use as their daily ride. just admit it Caddies area thing of the past. vans don't look right
there is not another chassis you can build on, excipe the truck. you can build any type of body you want on it. regulations haven't stifled them.
 
While I'm on this rant, please forgive me for adding yet another comment. With the current industry pricing for funeral cars, what is needed is a completely professionally-designed-and-built range of coaches on chassis with lower price points than that of a Cadillac or a Lincoln. These could be based on Buick or Chevrolet or the Ford Taurus. Both the Chevrolet and the Ford products are available with heavy-duty options for police work and some of these components would suffice for professional car appliations as well. The number of funeral directors that can afford and will accept the current Cadillac and Lincoln coaches has dwindled while the second-hand market has soared and prices for good used cars has gone up substantially as well. The manufacturers have got to tap into the market for professionally-designed- and-built vehicles on lower cost chassis just as did Superior, S&S, Cotner/Bevington and Eureka did in the past. If they look right and are priced reasonably, there's no reason that this strategy couldn't bolster a manufacturer's production and sales. Sometimes you have to look to history for answers to today's problems.
 
Keith Snyder said:
While I'm on this rant, please forgive me for adding yet another comment. With the current industry pricing for funeral cars, what is needed is a completely professionally-designed-and-built range of coaches on chassis with lower price points than that of a Cadillac or a Lincoln. These could be based on Buick or Chevrolet or the Ford Taurus. Both the Chevrolet and the Ford products are available with heavy-duty options for police work and some of these components would suffice for professional car appliations as well. The number of funeral directors that can afford and will accept the current Cadillac and Lincoln coaches has dwindled while the second-hand market has soared and prices for good used cars has gone up substantially as well. The manufacturers have got to tap into the market for professionally-designed- and-built vehicles on lower cost chassis just as did Superior, S&S, Cotner/Bevington and Eureka did in the past. If they look right and are priced reasonably, there's no reason that this strategy couldn't bolster a manufacturer's production and sales. Sometimes you have to look to history for answers to today's problems.
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Well maybe you should consider getting back into the industry, Tom!!
 
I think Keith is right on the money here. It is time that someone brought out a lower-priced Funeral Coach based on something other then Cadillac and Lincoln.

But will it happen ??? I think Cadillac and Lincoln could car less about building something that the coachbuilders can work with. the volume numbers are just not there. Its that simple

But if the coachbuilders can work with Buick, Chevy and Ford maybe there is a chance ?
 
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Mike Boyer said:
I think Keith is right on the money here. It is time that someone brought out a lower-priced Funeral Coach based on something other then Cadillac and Lincoln.

But will it happen ??? I think Cadillac and Lincoln could car less about building something that the coachbuilders can work with. the volume numbers are just not there. Its that simple

But if the coachbuilders can work with Buick, Chevy and Ford maybe there is a chance ?
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are you forgetting it's all the same companies. no one has a framed car anymore.
 
There ARE others besides Cadillac and Lincoln chassis, not many, but they are out there. Don't forget the MK Chrysler/Dodge conversions from mini vans that have a more traditional hearse appearance. There is also the Binz Mercedes, and the Rosewood Prinzing, comes to mind.
 
I know that they are the same company's ( G.M. and Ford ) but if someone doesn't start thinking "outside the box" again, (using other models) we will be heading down the Mini-Van Conversions road. ( I'm not saying anything is wrong with the MK products. They are and continue to serve a growing market)

But the problem with Binz-Mercedes and Rosewood Prinzing is again Price ! I'm not sure what the prices are on these products but I would think they are up there with a Cadillac and Lincoln ?

The bottom Line is PRICE ! Yes Funeral Director still wants a nice looking Coach out front with their Nameplate on it, but they don't want to "break the bank" doing it

The bottom line in any business in MONEY the less you spend....the more you make

Thats all I'm saying
 
Considering a nicely equipped 2015 Chevy Suburban runs $65,000, I don't think that $85 - 90,000 for a new Cadillac hearse is going to scare away a funeral director looking to buy new. I don't know what an MK van/hearse costs new, but I would guess it's in the $60,000 range. I bet I could find a very nice used late model Cadillac or Lincoln for less than 60 grand, and from what I see in my area, that is exactly what funeral directors do.

Back to the styling of the XTS hearses. Apparently I am one of a small hand full of people that like the Accubuilt cars. I have been considering buying a new coach, and S&S/Superior is the only company with some uniqueness to their styling. Eagle, Federal and Platinum all look alike...coach lamp with crown band...frankly I can't tell the three landau models apart. Eagle started that basic body style years ago, it's time for something different.

Ironically, when I have shown the different models to friends/family not in the business and ask their opinion, the S&S Masterpiece is the top choice followed by the new Victoria.
 
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