Limousines

one can ya but if, this thing to death. like every other issue facing us to day we all understand the propose and meaning and we don't need a law to have cast in stone. if some one shows up at a meet with one we will deal with it on the spot. just like we did with the school bus. no since in fixing a problem that hasn't happen.

Rick Franklin said:

correct me if Im wrong, but I always was told a LIVERY vehicle was one that was available for rent or for hire. The so called party limos you reference would fit that definition.

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Misnamed - for whatever reason - vehicle classes are not new. For PCS judging purposes, ambulances used to be called RESCUES, which is not appropriate. Glad to see that one changed...!

(Calling an ambulance a "rescue" is still not as bad as calling it a "bus".)

I think the key words in regard to limousines in this respect are "Funeral" or "Funeral Livery". Vehicles used primarily for serving funeral directors - be they four or six-door models with folding jump-seats or center bench seats on and applicable chassis. In the mid-Fifties Memphian, Comet, National and others produced four-door limousines on a wide array of chassis all aimed at funeral service usage. Once again, the key word here is "funeral".

Just thinking, in the immediate post-war years, Hess & Eisenhardt built some unique, Cadillac-based, fast-back-styled four-and six-door "limousines". However, like Armbruster, Stageway and others builders, these particular cars were aimed at the "airport ground transportation" or "sight-seeing tour" business and never ofered to funeral service. Some had sun roofs and others had roof racks for luggage. These, while interesting, would also not qualify as "Funeral Service" or "Funeral Livery" limousines. They were essentially Cadillac busses.

Keith Snyder said:

I think the key words in regard to limousines in this respect are "Funeral" or "Funeral Livery". Vehicles used primarily for serving funeral directors - be they four or six-door models with folding jump-seats or center bench seats on and applicable chassis. In the mid-Fifties Memphian, Comet, National and others produced four-door limousines on a wide array of chassis all aimed at funeral service usage. Once again, the key word here is "funeral".

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Again, according to the bylaws it is

1.3. DEFINITION OF A PROFESSIONAL CAR. A professional vehicle shall be defined as a funeral, livery, or
ambulance class vehicle having special coachwork executed on passenger-car styling. The definition may be expanded to
include horse-drawn vehicles and vehicles taken from station-wagon and light-truck styling, and the Board of Directors
shall issue specific guidelines from time to time which explain and delineate the vehicles so defined.

I work near the airport, and I have seen everything from a regular Toyota Prius to 8 door superstretched Hummers with livery plates on them. So livery class does not really specify anything, and it says funeral or livery vehicle in the bylaws, which means it does not have to be a funeral limo.

Also, if you have a Fleetwood 75 or other Executive Sedan that was never used in livery service, it apparently still counts.

As for the 8-10 door station wagons or sedans with luggage racks, I have heard these referred to as "airport limousines". And I would think they would be more in the category of limousine than bus. Nothing in the bylaws state it has to be plush and built on a luxury car chassis, only that it is passenger car styling. Which a station wagon or sedan would be, even cheap ones.

John ED Renstrom said:

one can ya but if, this thing to death. like every other issue facing us to day we all understand the propose and meaning and we don't need a law to have cast in stone. if some one shows up at a meet with one we will deal with it on the spot. just like we did with the school bus. no since in fixing a problem that hasn't happen.

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Does not seem like the best idea.

Someone can read the bylaws, join the club online, register for Gettysburg or another international meet, drive several hundred miles to get there, and arrive with their pristine 1957 Chevy converted in 2005 into an 8 wheel, 42' foot long, hot tub in trunk, 8 door limo with bar, J-seats, TV, and dance floor. And then when they go to drive it on the showfield, they will be told their car cannot be shown or be judged for awards? I would think they would be quite upset and start a huge riot if that happened. I certainly would.

Mark Novak said:

Does not seem like the best idea.

Someone can read the bylaws, join the club online, register for Gettysburg or another international meet, drive several hundred miles to get there, and arrive with their pristine 1957 Chevy converted in 2005 into an 8 wheel, 42' foot long, hot tub in trunk, 8 door limo with bar, J-seats, TV, and dance floor. And then when they go to drive it on the showfield, they will be told their car cannot be shown or be judged for awards? I would think they would be quite upset and start a huge riot if that happened. I certainly would.

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Using your analogy a person could take a van or panel truck, install some magnetic landau bars, screw a casket rack to a 4x8' piece of plywood on the floor, call it a hearse, and demand that it be accepted and judged. Won't happen.

If a "huge riot" (or small ruckus) started, I can think of several PCS members - myself included - that would get together and "protect" the instigator until the authorities arrive.

Mark Novak said:

Does not seem like the best idea.

Someone can read the bylaws, join the club online, register for Gettysburg or another international meet, drive several hundred miles to get there, and arrive with their pristine 1957 Chevy converted in 2005 into an 8 wheel, 42' foot long, hot tub in trunk, 8 door limo with bar, J-seats, TV, and dance floor. And then when they go to drive it on the showfield, they will be told their car cannot be shown or be judged for awards? I would think they would be quite upset and start a huge riot if that happened. I certainly would.

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Mark - we may all be talking at cross-purposes here. With all due respect, what exactly is it that you are attempting to ascertain? What is the point of this inquiry? What do you hope to accomplish here? Just asking.

Steve Loftin said:

Using your analogy a person could take a van or panel truck, install some magnetic landau bars, screw a casket rack to a 4x8' piece of plywood on the floor, call it a hearse, and demand that it be accepted and judged. Won't happen.

If a "huge riot" (or small ruckus) started, I can think of several PCS members - myself included - that would get together and "protect" the instigator until the authorities arrive.

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I have seen some vehicles with little more than landau bars on a station wagon being passed off as a first call vehicle. But my post is about limousines, not hearses or first call vehicles.

So if someone joins the club in good faith, pays for an international meet, brings a nice condition limousine that does not meet YOUR definition of what should be allowed, and is justifiably upset, your solution is to get some like minded members and bully and intimidate him off the showfield? sounds like a great introduction and way to promote the club.

I'm sure that is absolutely not what Steve is implying. Let's keep this civil.

Keith Snyder said:

Mark - we may all be talking at cross-purposes here. With all due respect, what exactly is it that you are attempting to ascertain? What is the point of this inquiry? What do you hope to accomplish here? Just asking.

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Mark, you still haven't answered the question posed above. Again, respectfully, what exactly is it that you're attempting to do, imply or say here? Inquiring minds want to know. Thanks.

Keith Snyder said:

Mark - we may all be talking at cross-purposes here. With all due respect, what exactly is it that you are attempting to ascertain? What is the point of this inquiry? What do you hope to accomplish here? Just asking.

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I was asked what kind of limousines are allowed in the club. I was actually defending the club at the time from someone that said they have no desire to see a car show that celebrates death, dismemberment, and gore.

Rather than make up OPINIONS of what THEY THOUGHT should be allowed and should not be allowed like some have done. I decided to actually look up the bylaws to see what was and was not allowed. I thought there would be something prohibiting the hot tub in trunk party limo. But to my surprise, there is not. So I asked here thinking maybe I missed something.

Aside from the original bylaw I found, which is quite vague. The only other official info was from Paul, but that basically pertains to displays and offensive wording or graphics on the vehicle. As well as a post from Tony, the president, stating that when the club was formed, it was the INTENTION to be for factory and funeral limos. But there is nothing prohibiting party limos.

The rest are all simply OPINIONS of what people THINK should and should not be allowed. But there is NOTHING in the bylaws backing up any of it. So if members do not like that, then maybe they should look into what needs to be done to change it.

Personally, I am half tempted to start looking for bottom of the line Chevys with roof racks and hot tubs to take to the next meet.

Mark Novak said:

I have seen some vehicles with little more than landau bars on a station wagon being passed off as a first call vehicle. But my post is about limousines, not hearses or first call vehicles.

So if someone joins the club in good faith, pays for an international meet, brings a nice condition limousine that does not meet YOUR definition of what should be allowed, and is justifiably upset, your solution is to get some like minded members and bully and intimidate him off the showfield? sounds like a great introduction and way to promote the club.

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Mark, I apologize for being a little late to this party, but I would like to say a few things here.

First of all, limousines are limousines, whether they ferry executives, carry people having a good time, or they work funerals. I once owned a 1972 Fleetwood 7533 that never was used in livery, but it is still a limousine and would never have been turned away, because it was not a funeral, or livery vehicle.

Second thing is that when the PCS by-laws and guidelines were originally written, the other types of limousines you are referring to, really did not exist, there may have been a few.

Third thing is that while we do have rules and for the most part, they are followed and enforced, I have seen a small number of cars on the show field that technically were not professional cars. There was at least one Cadillac Mirage, an eight door Chevy Biscayne and at least a couple of questionable cars. And I bet there have been others over the years. Come to think of it, there was a 1962 Flxible Buick hearse with hydraulics and side pipes and a 1958 Comet Olds hearse in purple with white tufted interior. The point is, these cars were on the show field, whether it was right, or wrong, they were allowed to be there.

You know, at the risk of being shot at sunrise by some folks here, I want to say that there may be a time when the PCS will have to get with the times and modify some rules. We should welcome and encourage people to join us.

As the Gettysburg Meet Co-Chair, I will do my best to make everyone comfortable and glad they came. To me, the No Casket, No Macabre Decor and No Inappropriate Signage are the only things we just can't have.

Please come to Gettysburg! You will have a good time with some really nice people who just want to enjoy themselves.

Bill Marcy said:

when the PCS by-laws and guidelines were originally written, the other types of limousines you are referring to, really did not exist, there may have been a few.

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Mark, Bill makes a good point here. The PCS, like any other organization is a "living, breathing, and evloving organism" that makes changes demanded by its members on a majority rules basis. Perhaps the membership and the executive should take a look at the by-laws amending them as they consider suitable in this regard. I too have seen some vehicles displayed that I personally didn't consider true "professional cars" under the original precepts of the organization but, neither I nor anyone in the membership, that I am aware of, cast aspersions toward the vehicle or the owner nor were they banned, to the best of my knowledge, from participating in the activities. Unlike other automobile clubs, the PCS is made up of some of the most decent folks you'll ever meet - many of whom suffered discrimination at the hands of other car clubs when they wished to participate and show their vehicles at non PCS events. Frankly, it's taken decades but, thankfully, that elitist attitude is waning and professional vehicles - hearses, ambulances, service and flower cars as well as professional limousines - are being welcomed and accepted by increasing numbers of organizations within the old car hobby. Nuff said?

Keith Snyder said:

Mark, Bill makes a good point here. The PCS, like any other organization is a "living, breathing, and evloving organism" that makes changes demanded by its members on a majority rules basis. Perhaps the membership and the executive should take a look at the by-laws amending them as they consider suitable in this regard. I too have seen some vehicles displayed that I personally didn't consider true "professional cars" under the original precepts of the organization but, neither I nor anyone in the membership, that I am aware of, cast aspersions toward the vehicle or the owner nor were they banned, to the best of my knowledge, from participating in the activities. Unlike other automobile clubs, the PCS is made up of some of the most decent folks you'll ever meet - many of whom suffered discrimination at the hands of other car clubs when they wished to participate and show their vehicles at non PCS events. Frankly, it's taken decades but, thankfully, that elitist attitude is waning and professional vehicles - hearses, ambulances, service and flower cars as well as professional limousines - are being welcomed and accepted by increasing numbers of organizations within the old car hobby. Nuff said?

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Amen Brother! We need to embrace change, at least some change. Having said that, we all must keep in mind that the biggest reason that professional cars are as welcome as they are today, is linked directly to the tireless efforts of the founders and subsequent members of the PCS. I will never advocate tossing out our basic guidelines and purpose.

Mark Novak said:

I was asked what kind of limousines are allowed in the club. I was actually defending the club at the time from someone that said they have no desire to see a car show that celebrates death, dismemberment, and gore.

The rest are all simply OPINIONS of what people THINK should and should not be allowed. But there is NOTHING in the bylaws backing up any of it. So if members do not like that, then maybe they should look into what needs to be done to change it.

Personally, I am half tempted to start looking for bottom of the line Chevys with roof racks and hot tubs to take to the next meet.

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Mark - I (and I would suppose that the majority of our members would agree) take umbridge at the statement that a PCS showfield is in any way "a car show that celebrates death, dismemberment, and gore."

They are, I would submit, a celebration of the highly specialized and artistic automotive coachwork eminating from a long and highly neglected segment of the American (and international) automotive industry. In this respect, these displays differ very little from similar events held by police car or fire truck buffs. They are all honoring highly specialized and significant segments of automotive history - the people who built them as well as those who owned and operated them.
Secondly, opinions and what people think are the basis of a democratic organization of any kind - the PCS included. If a majority of our members
think that "party car" type limousines should be recognized and embraced, well....I guess we'll have to accept that. However, our organization was based on the defination of a "professional vehicle" as being an emergency vehicle, a funeral service vehicle or a limousine that was used for funeral service or funeral livery service - within or associated with the funeral service profession (please note that, up until the mid-to-late Seventies, most ambulances were owned and operated by local community funeral homes).

Finally, I am apalled at the very notion that someone with a sincere interest in professional vehicles, a member or life member of this fine organization would even consider disrespecting his fellow members by purposely bringing a vehicle to a meet simply to cause a disturbance or create friction within the organization. I respectfully submit that this appears to be attitude that displays an intent to disrupt and cause problems. Not something any one in this organization wants or seeks. As I said many times in the past, we can never lose sight of the primary objective of the PCS - it's a mutual admniration and appreciation of the professional vehicles themselves.

getting close to show time and people start to worry.. if Mark was defending our none entry of party wagons I would say he was correct. werethere is not the exact wording the intent was to keep things funeral related.

that being said if a nice party wagon came in it most likly would be allowed in I have been to every meet fom 05 except the one im milwaukee that Mark and Patrick did. I have not seen anyone get turned away. there have been defently none pro cars on the show field. from van ambulances to El Caminos called flower cars.

but the bylaws are what that are. so Mark are you suggesting we should change them to read limousines as the type used in a funrel service? we could prepose that this board meeting and start the ball rolling

Mark wrote:

I was asked what kind of limousines are allowed in the club. I was actually defending the club at the time from someone that said they have no desire to see a car show that celebrates death, dismemberment, and gore.



Mark

If I were asked that question, I would have told them to log on to the site and get them to look through past meet posts and photos to see for themselves what kind of cars show up at PCS meets.

It would have done 2 things... first, proven there is absolutely NO dismemberment or gore and second, they would have seen incredible cars including fully stock amazing limos.

They wouldn't have seen any form of limo with a hot tub, built on a Hummer chassis, with a skeleton or blood themed paint job.

If they do not agree that actually using one of these outstanding vintage hearses on a funeral today wouldn't be anything but a incredible way to "celebrate a death or life", must be a person who wouldn't want to become a PCS member anyway.

I (we) would much rather have people join the PCS on a "quality-Interest" basis vs a "quantity-Numbers" basis. Not everyone likes funeral or ambulance vehicles to begin with. We on the other hand do very much. Not everyone will be a fit for this club but getting them to see for themselves before or after a judgement as mentioned of the club is worth a try getting them to see what the club is all about.


Maybe he has seen the Phantom Coaches club with their T-shirts that read: dis-MEMBER-ed as both clubs promote hearses, ambulances and limos.

It is possible they have no idea that the PCS exists and what they stand for. Opposite of the custom car clubs regarding gore and skeletons.


Anyway, looking forward to seeing you in August at the meet as always.

If you bring a '57 Chev limo, I will buy the ice cream when we take a ride in it ! If it has a hot tub, I will pass as I don't look good in a speedo ! I would have to loose 60 pounds first.


Regards,
Darren

I already said I was defending the club. I have been to many PCS events including helping organize and co-host the 2013 Milwaukee International meet. So I do not need to hear speeches about what the club is about or told to go to a show or to look at pictures.

I also am certainly glad that I did NOT send the person inquiring about limousines here to this forum to see bickering about what should and should not be allowed, while none of these opinions matter because none of it is in the bylaws.

Yes, I certainly think that if you do not want certain types of limousines to be included in the club, then a proposal should be made to incorporate that into the bylaws. Because right now, anything can show up.

And I have already seen first hand where several people had a big fit because a certain party limo showed up in Milwaukee. So don't tell me that it wouldn't happen, because it already has. We allowed it on the showfield because it was a new member that signed up and joined the club specifically for the Milwaukee meet, and he was very excited and proud of his car. While it wasn't what we were expecting to show up, it was not in poor taste or condition. So we weren't going to tell him to go away. I see now that no one had any right whatsoever to object to that car. It is a good thing I didn't know that then, because the ones that objected most definitely would have heard from me. Unfortunately, I have never seen this car show up at another event again. I have no idea if it was because of the objections to it or not, but hopefully it had nothing to do with that. Because attacking new members is not a good thing. Especially when the objections have no merit.

Also, I will not be in Gettysburg this year. It has nothing to do with this post. It just does not work out for me this year. But I will be at future events, and have attended everything local this year.