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Jean-Marc Dugas
08-21-2010, 10:58 PM
So tonight, we decided to go for Ice Cream. Susan and I loaded the dogs and off we went to Shediac.

About 10 minutes after we left the house, we could smell something burning. You know the smell, the one that cannot come from your car. It must have been from one of the tourists in front of us.

We got to Shediac, did the up-and-down the main street a few times, had ice cream and headed back home. Since there was not a lot of traffic, I decided to engage the ol' B&M. As usual, the lights dimmed when I turned it on, but this time, they did not seem to come back up to the same intensity as they were before. Oh well, must have been my eyes.

Once we got back home, I turned off the car to take the Beacon off the roof before getting the car in the garage. Got back in the car to start it, and, well, wouldn't start. There was not enough juice to get it turning more than a couple of turn.

Opened the hood to look around, and decided to take the batteries out to recharge them. The problem must be the dirty connections. Put one battery on the charger and cleaned all of the connectors. They now look like new.

And then, just before closing the hood for the night, something caught my eye....


http://www.professionalcarsociety.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=823

Jean-Marc Dugas
08-21-2010, 11:02 PM
The wire is burned right out of the alternator. I guess that the burning smell did not come from one of those other cars after all.

I'll have to check tomorrow if I can borrow an alternator from our fleet center while I send this one to be rebuilt.

Man!!!!! if it is not one thing it is another.....

Kevin O'Connell
08-22-2010, 06:21 AM
Jean-Marc, let me know if your rebuilder balks at repairing your alternator. There are a couple of heavy hitters here in the "Hell-A" area.

Jean-Marc Dugas
08-22-2010, 07:55 AM
Thanks Kevin.

John ED Renstrom
08-22-2010, 10:17 AM
age it gets to everything does it not. as the old guy said it "goes along like this for a bit then gets worse". I missed meeting you in Albany. I missed meeting a lot of people, but you I wanted to meet. maybe next year.

Scott Crittenden
08-22-2010, 10:24 AM
age it gets to everything does it not. as the old guy said it "goes along like this for a bit then gets worse". I missed meeting you in Albany. I missed meeting a lot of people, but you I wanted to meet. maybe next year.

Ed if you hadn't been so busy working a dozen or so cars! :)

Jean-Marc Dugas
08-22-2010, 10:23 PM
Tonight I went to the storage barn where I keep the 69 to "borrow" it's alternator, but it is totally different than the one on the 67, so no luck.

When I got back home, I removed the alternator from the 67 and off to the alternator shop we'll go in the AM.

I also checked with the mechanic at the fleet centre today to see if I could use one of the Ford Ambulance alternator untilni get mine fixed, but the brackets are all together different.

Anyhow, we'll see what tomorrow brings.

Dwayne Brooks
08-22-2010, 10:30 PM
That beast sure looks familiar Jean-Marc. Here's the one on the '66...

http://i907.photobucket.com/albums/ac274/hotroddwayne/1966%20Cadillac%20Superior%20ambulance/IMG_0669.jpg

Too bad about your meltdown, hopefully your luck will turn around soon!
Thanks for the head's up, gonna insulate mine MUCH better tomorrow

Jean-Marc Dugas
08-30-2010, 08:26 AM
I have replaced the old generator with a new one, but of course, there has to be issues.....

(1) The belts were too short by about one inch. Hat to get new belts. Because of the difference between the mounting holes on the generators, the new one does not swing left / right as much as the old one.

(2) There are some wires left over. Since the new generators do not need an external voltage regulator, what do i do with these wires?

The car starts and drives, but it runs rougher than ever. One of the wires that comes out of the generator must have been connected to something somewhere that makes the car run better.

Jean-Marc Dugas
08-30-2010, 10:02 AM
Here are 2 diagrams of how thing were wired with my old generator and with my new one. As you see from the drawings, I am not quite ready to leave my day job to become an electrical engineer.

In the diagram of the new generator wiring, we can see that the regulator is now "Stand Alone" and is still connected to that silver box on the firewall. Should that silver box be connected to the generator in any way?.


Old set-up
http://www.professionalcarsociety.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=833

New set-up
http://www.professionalcarsociety.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=834

Richard Vyse
08-30-2010, 10:38 AM
I'm sticking to embalming. Wow!

Rick Franklin
08-30-2010, 11:46 AM
I'm sticking to embalming. Wow!

good idea, richard....or cremating!

Paul Steinberg
08-30-2010, 12:48 PM
The through the firewall is the Cole Hersee battery switch? I will assume so. The positive wires from the two batteries goes to the Cole Hersee switch, and then it should go out of the Switch to the large positive terminal on the starter solenoid. There are wires going from the starter solenoid to the ignition switch, and back to the starter solenoid and then to the positive terminal of the ignition coil. One wire the current flows through a resistor to the coil giving the coil 6 volts for the coil to operate and 12 volts for the coil for starting. In a round about way, these wires go through the ignition points, but without a diagram, it is too difficult to put into words.
It appears that the "silver box" is a relay, and there are 4 wires on it. One of the four (at the top) is just a grounding wire. Then there is one on the left of the box, and two coming off the bottom. Where these wire come from and where they go, I have no idea. From your drawing, it appears that the relay is feeding power to the regulator.
In diagram #2, there is no schematic of the new alternator, so I can't see how the batteries are being charged.
In the drawing of the original alternator, it appears from your diagram that all the current was flowing through the alternator on the way to the engine starter. I have never see this done on any car. If you look at the picture that Dwayne posted, you will see the wiring is quite different than what you have have drawn. I have a suspicion that sometime in the past, the wiring for the alternator was changed by someone that didn't quite understand the factory wiring, or was trying to accomplish something that the factory didn't provide for. Unfortunately, I can find no wiring schematic for this original configuration. I do know that GM used the same type of alternator on Commercial Chassis cars from at least 1963 based on observations of older vehicles.
At this point, I strongly suggest that you consult with an automotive electrician that knows how this should all go together. If it were me, I would have just looked for an identical replacement alternator. In the end, it probably would have been less expensive and a lot less hassle.
Apparently, understanding electrical wiring is a lot more difficult than embalming. As proof to this statement, Richard Vyse can embalm, but he has a lot of difficulty with electrical wiring. The world shutters every time he goes near anything electrical... :yum:
I will contact Kevin O'Connel and possibly he might be able to figure out what is going on based on your drawings. Additional pictures might also be helpful... Paul

John ED Renstrom
08-30-2010, 03:17 PM
the relay in the drawing is that not the horn relay? some time I see like on this 63 thy are using a Horn relay for the lights. one wire GM internal regulated should have one wire going to the battery pos terminal. in this application I would guess that would be at the dual battery switch at the number one side. that way when you had both batteries turned on they would charge. when only the number one on it would be the only one charging. having the old regulator in or out of the circuit makes no difference as it's not used. that is unless you put the charge wire to it. the other two charge wires go to the 110 inverter. on or off the car should operate normally.

Paul Steinberg
08-30-2010, 04:07 PM
on a one wire alternator, the wire that usually goes to the positive battery terminal would go on the center output terminal of the Cole Hersee switch, so no matter what battery you are using, number 1 or number 2,, the alternator would be energized. If it went to the #1 terminal then the alternator would have no output if you were to start the car on the #2 battery and run it on the #2 battery.

Jean-Marc Dugas
08-30-2010, 09:32 PM
I changed the diagram and labeled the new alternator.

I think you are correct Paul, this is getting to complicated for me, and it is hard to explain unless you are right there. I'll find someone locally that can give me a hand with this one.

http://www.professionalcarsociety.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=5&pictureid=835

Kevin O'Connell
08-30-2010, 09:35 PM
Looking at your second wiring diagram, I'm inclined to suggest that the reason your engine runs poorly is because you're still not charging. The ignition coil requires nine volts to produce a decent spark (The wire from the ignition switch to the coil is a three volt resistor wire to prevent premature point failure. Older cars used a ballast resistor). A voltmeter placed across the battery terminals with the engine running will confirm or eliminate that suspicion. You should read 14.2 to 14.8 volts with the new alternator.

The "silver box" on the firewall is a Field Relay. The transistorized voltage regulator does not have the current-carrying capacity to energize the field in your alternator. Instead, the regulator controls the field relay which does have adequate capacity. On rare occasion the relay can stick closed, creating a dangerous overcharging condition. This could result in the type of failure you experienced but I've only seen that happen twice in my career, and never with Delco equipment.

I don't know how to sugar coat this, so I'll apologize in advance if I offend anyone.

Why couldn't your source repair your existing alternator? You had a well-matched system. I would never take the word of someone who tried to sell me something because he could not or would not take the time to repair what you have. He didn't tell you how to adapt this newer unit to your car and now you have to disconnect factory components to preclude the possibility of a short or fire.

As I mentioned earlier in this thread, I deal regularly with several firms who deal with high-capacity charging systems exclusively. Perhaps one of my sources can find a competent shop in the Moncton area.

Richard Vyse
08-31-2010, 09:59 AM
Richard Vyse can embalm, but he has a lot of difficulty with electrical wiring. The world shutters every time he goes near anything electrical

For a sick man, you can be funny. I can fix anything with wire nuts and an extension cord! :893USA-Smilie-thumb

Wait until I install the "Q" and have the power cord running from it over the roof and down into the engine area. Duck tape will cover the cord.

Todd Merrifield
08-31-2010, 11:48 AM
Wait until I install the "Q" and have the power cord running from it over the roof and down into the engine area. Duck tape will cover the cord.

You should just cut your entire car in half from front to back and install a rubber strip down the middle. Hook one side to +12V and the other side to ground, then as long as your lights and sirens are near the middle you can run as many as you want.

John ED Renstrom
08-31-2010, 12:35 PM
The "silver box" on the firewall is a Field Relay. The transistorized voltage regulator does not have the current-carrying capacity to energize the field in your alternator. Instead, the regulator controls the field relay which does have adequate capacity. On rare occasion the relay can stick closed, creating a dangerous overcharging condition. This could result in the type of failure you experienced but I've only seen that happen twice in my career, and never with Delco equipment..

the 63 I have here is running this same sat up. I was looking it over and realised that it has a strange relay wired in. now I know what it is for. the hot rod er trick was to drag a wire over to the exciter straight from the pos terminal on the alternator to get it to charge. but then it's hot all the time. never having to take apart a rotating Cole-Hersey switch I did not know about the center post. this must be from were they jumped the clock to keep it running when the battery's were off. you get into added stuff to the factory wiring then try to alter it again it can really be a headache. just think they had a staff of engineers at GM do it once another staff at superior do it again and here you are by yourself. I have found on these cars that if you can't get someone to make the repair complete then say thanks and go next door. if not you end up spending a lot of money and time redoing way more then you wanted to.

Russell Dalziel
09-02-2010, 02:32 AM
For a sick man, you can be funny. I can fix anything with wire nuts and an extension cord! :893USA-Smilie-thumb

Wait until I install the "Q" and have the power cord running from it over the roof and down into the engine area. Duck tape will cover the cord.

I will mount your electronic Siren Speakers under Your Seat for You
There Wont be any "I cant Hear the Siren" LOL


Russ