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Mike Owens
06-12-2014, 05:30 AM
http://C:\Documents and Settings\Mike.OFH\My Documents\My Pictures\Bessie\

PCS Wizards, these are Bessie's Firewall nameplates, besides the manufacture date, what tidbits can you see here..what is the paint number?

Mike Owens
06-12-2014, 06:36 AM
Sorry, can't get the nameplate picture to post from my laptop. Will try later from the office...

:o

John ED Renstrom
06-12-2014, 12:47 PM
you will need to be a site supporter to post the picture. I don't have a picture of the 70 superior tag but here is a 69. the build plate only list body and sill numbers and date of manufacture the paint code would be on a separate tag that was one of the peal and stick kind. most of them have gotten lost over time. the paint numbers are superiors and there is no cross reference to them.

Mike Owens
06-12-2014, 01:07 PM
So how do you become a site supporter. I have been able to post other pictures...

Russell Street
06-12-2014, 02:17 PM
So how do you become a site supporter. I have been able to post other pictures...

The bright yellow box at the upper left side of the page, click and be amazed!

Mike Owens
06-12-2014, 03:51 PM
I are now a Super Site Supporter!!!!

:cool:

Mike Owens
06-12-2014, 04:03 PM
http://www.professionalcarsociety.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=287&pictureid=2873
Finally able to post picture...I assume the date is the date of manufacture. What else can you PCS Wizards tell me about the info on these two plates???
And was the paint # indicated on the black plate the white paint from GM? I assume it was painted red by Superior but where would the red paint # be?

:applause:

John ED Renstrom
06-13-2014, 02:55 AM
we can tell it's a early 70. with a November 13 1969. build date. the gm tag is not stamped for paint code, as the chassis was incomplete when it left the factory. the sill number is the number given to the car from superior. the back side of the parts will have that number wrote on them. it's the way the keep the right parts on the right car. the body number is believed to be the number of the car in that run.

Mike Owens
06-13-2014, 06:36 AM
Thanks, John I knew you would come through. So is there another plate somewhere that would have the original red paint # on it??? These are on the driver's side firewall by the windshield...

Paul Steinberg
06-13-2014, 10:39 AM
What is commonly called the data plate on the fire wall, was attached by the Fisher Body plant, and it has the codes that the body was built to. In this case, there are 2. P21 and 452. I haven't been able to locate anywhere that these code are deciphered. Comparing your data plate to other 1970 data plates might help to figure this out. If all the commercial chassis data plates for 1970 are the same, then that would indicate that those 2 numbers are Commercial Chassis designations only. Since the paint number wasn't stamped, that meant that the cowl and chassis was shipped unpainted. Since the front fenders and hood were painted on a separate line, and then mated up to the cowl and chassis, they were usually painted one of 2 colors.... Black or white. A lot of what has been learned about how the cars were shipped has come from the people that worked at Miller Meteor in Piqua Ohio.

John ED Renstrom
06-13-2014, 02:23 PM
there would be no way to determine what superior used on the original body except comparing. the paint code tag is the one I posted it was a typed foil tag. that was a glue on . the numbers on it are the numbers superior assigned to there color. there are no superior books left and there is no cross reference to say GM codes. so all we know for a fact on the original colors is, it is 1970 or below. usually GM. usually the same year as the car. they did have a few favorites they would offer and they did paint fleet colors on request. the best place to find a original color is under moldings. once you have a original sample it can be taken to a automotive paint supplier and the compared to color chips there. most now have the reader if you can get a big enough piece to take a reading they can match it up that way.

but even if you could find a superior paint code you could not use it to order paint to match. MM are different they used the GM code. then if I remember right S&S just put down a name they liked.
they all did that different. the only true color is black.

Mike Owens
06-13-2014, 04:54 PM
As I said early on when I joined, be patient with me, never done this pro-car thing before. As I did more searching, I found the color plate as attached. I know there was discussion on different shades of red, is Dakota Red what I want to restore Bessie to, or is there another red that will give more eye appeal?
http://www.professionalcarsociety.org/forums/picture.php?albumid=287&pictureid=2874

James Fischer
06-13-2014, 05:57 PM
In my opinion,I always do what pleases ME the most,looks good and hopefully not straying from the original color to much.
If your going to to do a 100% correct restoration then you will more then likely have to go with the original colors as were on the ambulance when she was new.
But as I said I like to do a slight color variation,still keeping with authenticity but making it appeal to ME.There are literally hundreds of shades of red and just as many shades of white.
Whatever you decide she will look amazing when you are finished !!
Good Luck with her!!!!....... and this is just :my2cents:....

Paul Steinberg
06-13-2014, 06:50 PM
Who knows what Dakota Red is? GM used the same name for a color over many years, but without knowing the exact year of the color you wanted to use, you had a wide choice of different hues of the same color. The color name remained the same, but the code changed with the variation of hue or intensity from year to year.

Cary Livingston
06-13-2014, 10:24 PM
Since the door jambs weren't painted they are most likely is the original red. You might also take the gas cap door or a fender skirt off and get down to the original paint and have it matched.

John ED Renstrom
06-14-2014, 12:39 AM
GM code 50 is a washed out gold color. so matching up chips is the way you need to go. if the paint store has a color reader then rub out a spot on the door jam and they can match it that way. were did you find the paint code on the 70?

Jack Ramsey
06-14-2014, 06:27 AM
Auto/Truck/Fleet Paint Cross Reference - http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?manuf=GM&con=m

Mike Owens
06-14-2014, 06:30 AM
Passenger side firewall next to hood hinge. The other two plates posted earlier were in the same location on the driver's side. I need to find a good spot of the original red, clean it up and see how that looks. I don't think she has air in the back, but the fresh air vent in the roof. After rain, she leaks around the fresh air vent. Again thanks PCS mentors for your patience and support.

Steve Lichtman
06-14-2014, 08:11 AM
Mike, it's all up to you. Every service that owned an ambulance painted it whatever color they wanted, so any color (really, ANY color) is possible to be used on an ambulance. And they were often repainted. There's no real "standard" red.

If I were you, I'd check with a paint shop and see just what "Dakota Red #50" looks like on a paint chip. Or look at the spot of the original color if you can find it. If you like it, then that's your color. Done. If you don't like it, look through the book and pick a color you like.

My ambulance, I had the color on the nameplate, and I wasn't sure. But the shop sanded the later color (orange) off the hood and found a decent section of the original color, "Flamengo Red", and I loved it. And that is the red color on my ambulance. It's not what you normally see (it has, to me, a little bit of blue in it), but it looks good.

Scott Crittenden
06-14-2014, 12:01 PM
http://i519.photobucket.com/albums/u353/teonigil/1957-cadillac-pg01.jpg

John ED Renstrom
06-14-2014, 12:39 PM
once again I stand corrected, superior did use the GM code. just finding the paint code tag is a feat in itself as most of them fell off over the years. the 1957 color will go back and up a few years . now to get some one that can cross the old number to the new formula is a challenge. Ditzler did fairly well upgrading all there older formulas to new paints. now that you know the year and it's a good GM code use that instead of the name to get your paint.
your looking for 1957 GM code 50 red. from looking at the chip I'm guessing it's really close to the color on Steve's. on the blue side of red. in 67 Oldsmobile called that Spanish red. by 70 Caddy had dropped almost all there solid colors.

Jack Ramsey
06-15-2014, 07:17 AM
Ditzler PPG 70811, seventh from the bottom: http://paintref.com/cgi-bin/colorcodedisplay.cgi?manuf=GM&model=Cadillac&year=1957&con=myo&rows=50

John ED Renstrom
06-15-2014, 01:51 PM
once you have the GM code and the year for the code you can find it in a number of places. what you can't do is put in GM code 50 without the year and come up with it. here are some examples of what Paul was saying. Me to.
the gm code 50 showers up in 57 the 55-56 red is code 52. visual it the same red but the Dupont numbers are different. mixing you can get to the color a number of different ways. by 59 they dropped the solid red went to a metallic and keep the 50 paint code number. the solid red same shade appears some were around 67 and with a letter code of R in the new paint types.vanishes again but you see it again in 1970 paint chips as GM code 75.
you will find it also in the fleet colors with a different number as the page that Jack put up will show you Ditzler (PPG) and the Dupont numbers. you will notice the name changes and the name for the same color changes in the different divisions of GM also. but with jacks page you now have a current Ditzler number and that can be crossed referenced. you will end up with a color as close to the older paint as the new paint's can do.

the other page Paul put up explains how two different people can take the paint out of the same can and come up with different shades in the final product.

now remember when looking at these chips your looking at them ran threw my scanner view on you monitor, not in natural light. here they are all washed out with the scanner they are much darker then scaned

but from human interest the 58 code 26 is the color we are using on Virgule's 58. the light shades are chip damage from the page on top of it.

Mike Owens
06-15-2014, 02:51 PM
Wow Ed, you really went above and beyond and I thank you!

John ED Renstrom
06-15-2014, 11:44 PM
now Scott found the first chip. that was the necessary clue. but on this theme as to what's in a name. I was putting the book back together and this stood out on the 66 gm pages.

remember Steve's mention of Flamenco red. will here it is. GM code 48. in the Cadillac colors. but notice the it also appears on the plain old GM car line up as GM code R. but if you have a C,B,P or O it has a different name. both paint codes are using the same DuPont number. which is drop in Caddy in 67 but is offered in the other GM lines still code R in 67 but under each of the lines is a different name for the same color. which by the way is the same color as the 57-58 Dakota red. I love the color. it's a blood red but not as dark as the standard ford pick up red. I was the third owner of a 67 Oldsmobile convertible in "Spanish red" that now resides in Midland Tx.

the last pictures is the chip book this one is from early 60 some 50's to 88 Domestic. I always loved it when someone would ask to look at the chip book as they wanted to look for a color to paint there car.

James Fischer
06-16-2014, 01:13 AM
Okaaay...
All that being said ...so just what COLOR is "American LaFrance Red" that Superior and probably a few others used ??

Jack Ramsey
06-16-2014, 08:29 AM
http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq304/fyrboy1/ALF/Soderbeck.jpg (http://s458.photobucket.com/user/fyrboy1/media/ALF/Soderbeck.jpg.html)
http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq304/fyrboy1/ALF/schemesbymanufacturers1920-19402.jpg (http://s458.photobucket.com/user/fyrboy1/media/ALF/schemesbymanufacturers1920-19402.jpg.html) http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq304/fyrboy1/ALF/schemesbymanufacturers1920-19401.jpg (http://s458.photobucket.com/user/fyrboy1/media/ALF/schemesbymanufacturers1920-19401.jpg.html)
Unless specified otherwise, "Standard ALFCO Red", as shown on the following "Paint and Lettering Sheet" from a 1970 order, was provided.
http://i458.photobucket.com/albums/qq304/fyrboy1/ALF/img016_zps3bf78347.jpg (http://s458.photobucket.com/user/fyrboy1/media/ALF/img016_zps3bf78347.jpg.html)

Steve Lichtman
06-16-2014, 09:40 AM
now Scott found the first chip. that was the necessary clue. but on this theme as to what's in a name. I was putting the book back together and this stood out on the 66 gm pages.

remember Steve's mention of Flamenco red. will here it is. GM code 48. in the Cadillac colors. but notice the it also appears on the plain old GM car line up as GM code R. but if you have a C,B,P or O it has a different name. both paint codes are using the same DuPont number. which is drop in Caddy in 67 but is offered in the other GM lines still code R in 67 but under each of the lines is a different name for the same color...What's in a name indeed. The color on my ambulance is listed as "Flamengo Red" (presumably "flame-n-GO") and not "Flamenco Red" (like the dancer). So one letter in the name will make a lot of difference as well. I believe the shop found it was a '69 GM color.

Peter Grave
06-16-2014, 12:23 PM
Had a friend back in the 60s who bought a new Cadie Convetrible every year for $26.00 extra from GM it was painted 69 Seminole Red a bright red good ambulance color check it out.

John ED Renstrom
06-16-2014, 11:02 PM
right Steve but if you look on the MM plate is #48.

most of the fire trucks were the standard Ford truck Red. ford called it candy apple red the paint code for it was T. ford used that color from the 30s up to the base coat clear coat years.

but the fleet service colors are easy to match you can look them up in the fleet service book under there company name. i do not have one but most paint supply do but according to the the info posted the #48 DuPont I'm thinking is a tint color. no reason it could not be used for finish you would add the right amount of base to it. that would explain why no one can find the color. the dark red DuPont 4737 I believe is a current color. so doug out the book here it is in 76-77 ford. sprayed a lot of that.